Discussion: Vandalism

  • Started: 7 months ago on Sun 17th Dec 2017

Public discussion This is a public discussion in Mt Tibrogargan.

Cris started this discussion 7 months ago.


I heard vandals have spread to cave 4 on Tibro east face. They managed to bring a camping table and some stuff, but sadly, they destroyed the old beehive (european bees). So the saga continues: first they bring up a generator, then they bolt the traverse with the endorsement of most, in the name of progress, then now vandals have easy access to cause damage. I'll be doing some reflecting on the necessity of making such fragile and hard terrain accessible to everybody.

I believe vandals cannot be considered "users" of the mountain and therefore they shouldn't be facilitated in reaching those areas. And also, I strongly believe that some areas of Tibrogargan (such cave 4 and many others historical lines) and other Glasshouse peaks should only be reached on trad gear, since the protection is available. The installation of safety equipment, for whatever rescue or commercial reasons, will only bring more people and the obvious problems with them.

A steep cliff on a mountain is a place for rock climbers.

Mark Gamble replied 7 months ago.

Thx Chris, if true sad indeed. I`m incapacitated atm, but may have a chance to get up there in the new year.

Ryan Siacci replied 7 months ago.

Yes this is a really sad development. I dont think it has to become a sport/trad thing though. LNT ethics go deeper than any individual outdoor pursuit.

Cris replied 7 months ago.

No Ryan, what I mean is that by installing sport hardware in a traditionally trad area (especially that traverse that can now be easily transformed in a via ferrata) you give access to non-rock climbers. I'm not interested in the trad-sport thing...

replied 7 months ago.

There was graffiti in cave 4 before the traverse grew those bolts. So either being able to place gear doesn't stop people having no respect for the mountain or the bolts aren't the problem here, a lack of ethics and/or education is.

I really liked those bees ;(

replied 7 months ago.

Who in their right mind would destroy that beehive? It was beautiful and one of my favourite parts of cave 4.

These people just sound reckless. I bet they didn't even use those bolts. They were probably drunk and scrambled over "fearlessly" - shame they didn't slip.

Cris replied 7 months ago.


Hmmm dunno how easy is to bring a table in that cave without using bolts. Maybe is just a coincidence that this level of vandalism begins with the appearance of the bolts on the traverse?. Also, IMO, the bolting itself is another form of vandalism, since the bolters never came forward.

Ryan Siacci replied 7 months ago.

This makes the assumption that they didnt rap in from above...

Cris replied 7 months ago.

The abseil from lower cave 5 area down to cave 4 requires shrubs raps and a good knowledge of Tibro. Only a rock climber can plan that and a rock climber would not do that with a table, taken already up the tourist track. Also a rock climber wouldn't rap blindly in cave 4 from above knowing there is a huge beehive, it just doesn't make sense. The easiest way to the cave with a table is up caves route and the traverse, using bolts to fix a line. I also discard Prom1 and Orpheus, too tricky with that burden. In my opinion they are not climbers but the same breed of people taking up huge radios on the hiking trail and spray cans. Eliminate the facility of the bolts and you'll reduce the traffic of vandals. I'm a bit ignorant about bees but I'm wandering if there is a chance to restart the hive somehow... someone here may know.

Ryan Siacci replied 7 months ago.

What im saying is that it is essentially irrelevant how they got there. If the bolts werent there as you suggest, it could just have easily occured in cave 2. The hive would still be there but the other fuckery would have occured anyway. I'm sorry but i see the whole bertie salmon traverse argument as a total strawman that detracts from the real issue.

Cris replied 7 months ago.

Ryan Siacci A table can be removed and the cave cleaned up. The historical beehive probably cannot be replaced, it is lost forever unless the bees decide to build it again. My point remains the same: there are other hidden caves and difficult to reach spots around and up the walls of the main Glassies. Install safety hardware on easy scrambles, make the approach convenient and you'll get that sort of traffic and the place is wrecked (thank God they are safe atm).

I would like someone to come forward to convince me that those bolts were a valuable addition to the climbing community and users of the mountain. So far I failed to find something whatsoever positive about it of find a climber that didn't shake his head. Bear in mind I mainly frequent old farts and extremists conservative.

Ryan Siacci replied 7 months ago.

And nothing has stopped all these old farts from chopping said bolts if they felt so strongly about it. I understand your concern, i just think the focus for your argument is totally lost in the weeds. You cant prove who did what, its all hypothetical. A general improvement on education and ethics is what is needed, and this would encompass bolting ethics and the attending cultural concerns as well...

Ryan Siacci replied 7 months ago.

Or fuck it, whatever. Lets just argue about those two bolts until the end of time at the expense of the bigger picture.

Mark Gamble replied 7 months ago.

According to Dave, the ring leader has been identified and given a stern warning to pull his head in.

Re the bee hive: it had collapsed earlier under its own weight several years ago. The bees were rebuilding and had several small cones going.

Cris replied 7 months ago.

It's a good outcome. The bees will eventually rebuild the hive...

replied 7 months ago.

Does anyone have pics of that beehive when it was big? Like a few years ago? I would love to see what it looked like back then, never saw it until recently (and already thought it was pretty impressive!)

Cris replied 7 months ago.

I think I posted a pic here on the crag, but I have few from different years.

Mark Gamble replied 7 months ago.

Hey Simon,

I have a shot of it stashed away somewhere. Taken around 2005-2006 I think.

I'll get around to posting it at some point.

(can one post non-climbing photos here?)

replied 7 months ago. if you find it thanks man

David Jorm replied 6 months ago.

A friend of a friend has removed the table by roping it down Zeitgeist. The hive is regrowing nicely.

Ryan Siacci replied 6 months ago.

Thanks for the update David

replied 6 months ago.

Was the friend of a friend a dude named David Hardcastle? We climbed up black orpheus and then these three bushwalkers appeared from under cave four. They walked up Prometheus. I was like "damn these are some hardcore bush walkers."

Then the guy said "I'm David Hardcastle" and I was like "you guys are hardcore" and he was like "thanks."

Then I was like "where is the beehive, it smells like petrol up here" and he was like "yeah there was an empty Jerry can and a table up here the other week, I took it all down" and I was like "you're a mad cunt."

Then we traversed back to cave 3 and went home.

Will Vidler replied 6 months ago.

i used to climb with Dave

replied 6 months ago.

That dude is legit! Was one of those random happenings. Glad to have met the chap!

Mark Gamble replied 5 months ago.

Simon - have emailed you copies of the beehive.

Mark Gamble replied 5 months ago.

To the general community: have uploaded two photos of the ex-beehive in Cave 4, as it was - photographed in Jan. 2005. they should appear here under Cave 4 traverse.

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