Ascent: I Have a Dream

Man this is so awesome! Congrats!! Rad that you got on Elbow route too!!

Solid effort, mate!

So good man!

Top work Jase.

Thanks boys. Rad route.

Awesome Jason!

siiiickkkkkk!

Nice work Jason!

Great effort, but not a flash if you pre-inspect the holds.

@ Tim Mayer - Ummm, that's one of the key defining aspects of a Flash over an Onsight.

The difference in those is only beta/knowledge given from another person regarding gear, moves or holds. Flash is still supposed to be a ground up ascent. Once you inspect it from a rope it becomes a redpoint.

Sorry bud, but that's not the case. Nor has it ever been an accepted standard (historically). A flash is essentially a first try Send but with any form of beta.

Definition from TheCrag:

"I led this route, without falling or resting, on my first attempt, but used prior inspection and/or beta. "

UKC:

"To climb a route without practice (but perhaps with beta) without falls on the first viewing and first attempt."

Rock and Ice:

"Climbing a route on the first try (with prior knowledge of the moves)."

Always love a comment that has reputable sources cited to back it up

I wish I could find the old 8a.nu glossary of terms. Once upon a time it was the closest thing to a Gospel of standards (before the rise of the internet medium meant every climbing-related webpage has its own glossary), in particular because it was more or less the only globally used "tick logging climbing database".

I know of someone who has a hard copy of it, so I might have to see if I can scan it and repurpose it.

Though worth noting Ondra apparently intentionally avoiding rapping his latest (world first) 9a+ Flash. Did have 2 blokes siege it for days in end describing every hold in detail for him mind. Seriously though... do we really care how other people log their routes? First ascents aside surely it’s between you and the rock?

Paul, did you notice that the UKC entry says "on first viewing". If you abseil down it, that would be the first viewing and climbing it would be the 2nd. This is why rockclimbing.com says ""Flashing" = successfully climbing to the top of a route on your first attempt, without falling, after only observing someone else climb it ". The beta is supposed to be from somebody other than yourself.

Tim, why does it concern you? I personally think he flashed the route, but that doesn't mean anything. Jase is the only one that it should matter to. I mean, fair enough if it was completely wrong and it wasn't even the first shot or something, but for minor details (such as what you have mentioned), who gives a shit?

Roberto, I think it should matter, because the standard for how people log ascents on here is already diluted enough as it is, so it makes sense that others should have a vested interest (though whether or not I'd challenge someone about it if I didn't know that is a whole other question) as that in turn reflects on every person who logs an ascent on that route, if only by comparison.

Tim, Rockclimbing.com says: "Flash - n. completion of a climb first try with no falls. 2. (vb.) to perform a flash." and ONLY that. (ref: http://rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#f ). The excerpt you've quoted is a Newbie climber asking a question about definitions on a newbie forum, which -if you read further down the thread- was actually corrected to: "climb on lead first attempt without falling, having received beta ". Furthermore, it's probably one of the less reputable and peer-reviewed climbing sites out there...

I could've snipped the end of UKCs definition and none would be wiser, but I chose not to because I don't see too much needs to be read into it. I don't believe "first viewing" is meant to be taken literally, because you can view a climb from the ground and walk away, and there goes your first viewing. The only way it makes sense it to interpret it (without undermining the whole point of a flash), is to interpret it as "first viewing of the climb, as a climb".

On the same site (UKC) John Arran (a fairly well known climber ) describes a flash solely as: "Flash mean[s] a no-falls & no rehearsal ascent" with "having beta" as the difference between an Onsight and a flash.

Elsewhere on UKC, a consensus of users arrived at:

"A flash is when you've got 'beta', i.e. you know something about the route, it can range from having read an overly informative guide book description through to having analysed videos and watched friends try it next to them on an abseil rope."

My point is that essentially the fundamental delineation across the board (with an almost universal degree of acceptance) is that the defining factor of a flash is "that you have beta" (but have never actually been ON the route in question), and what differs is what exactly beta constitutes. At the most basic level, beta is any information about the route, and specificity is seldom defined, hence any information in any context is beta, and that is the sole qualifier.

I'm not expressly disputing that your stance doesn't exist (because, obviously, it does, as evidenced by a small proportion of reputable sources locatable online), but it isn't, nor has it ever been (historically), the accepted standard.

Onsight, on the other hand.... [cue epic flame war]

... no falls ascent having watched videos repeatedly and rapped late at night and not getting caught. Seating gear firmly enough to gain a rest, balance or height is acceptable if not witnessed. Lying is a means of attaining OS purity, though it pays to have something significant over your belayer.

Dare I say this appears closer to an onsight ascent than a redpoint! Providing Jas got no beta or watched anyone on it - "looking" at the holds hardly seems to warrant being relegated to mere redpoint ascent (you have to rap down the route to get to the hanging belay so unless you do it blindfolded its hard NOT to look at the holds). Draws on or off is a grey area that everyone loves to argue about. Well done Jas! Its a great achievement anyway you look at it.

yo tony pangos how many goes did it take you to flash velvet?

Jonty Lewis this is a solid read

Good read. I do think the majority accepts this as a flash ascent- I certainly would.

I wonder what the community's reaction would be if Alex Megos rapped down a 9b ten times prior to attempting it for a flash hah.

Definitely a flash without a seed of doubt. For my entire 30 years, Flash has always been about 1st shot after beta or inspection! Essentially you have some knowledge on the route!