There are small cams their, no bolt needed, just harden up or rap place them!!! I was able to get 3 or 4 aliens in to protect the start. Good to see the un-needed bolt removed!!
With a bolt there it was possible ground up safely, without it you have to rap place gear (ethically I'd rather have the bolt). Besides that, there was originally a piton there, so having a bolt is in keeping with the first ascent.
I went ground up with out the bolt or pin, it seemed fine.
With modern gear you don't need them, so therefore can do it in a much better style
To get a cam in to protect the start you either need long arms or to be standing on some not great holds to get not a great cam in, over a fall that would cause some serious injuries to a climber and a belayer. The need for the second bolt is much more debatable, taking the first out is asking for an accident. It's a great route that people go to expecting to fall off, that fall shouldn't put two people in hospital. If you're willing to be bold, that's great, I don't think there's enough of that these days, but the first bolt is long established.
Rubbish. Anchor your belayer and the gear is good. My partner fell on it after placing it! and we are both fine.
The bolt should never have gone in. Who ever chopped it I applaud them and if it went back in I'd go and chop it myself.
I checked out that slot thoroughly for cam placements in the past and it is a classic Arapiles slick slot which can be a lottery in terms of cams holding. I tested cams in there, some held, some pulled, even though the placements looked good. Think of yourselves as lucky to have got away without a potential serious accident after testing it.
Doesn't sound like she was lucky: sounds like she's got good judgement.
My opinion is that sometimes you're just not good enough to go ground up. Many people like it that way.
I'm one of the people that like it that way but that doesnt mean that every route has to be dangerous. This was a bolt with an established history that's effectively been around since the FA was done, and just makes it sane for those of us not strong enough to just pull the first five metres of moves with mediocre gear. It's not an offensive, totally unnecessary bolt by any stretch of the imagination. Of the locals I've spoken to about it, everyone thinks it should never have been taken out. Just because someone strong can pull those moves without falling off doesn't mean there shouldn't be a bolt, else there wouldn't be bolts on anything up to grade 35.
I did it back when the pin was still in it but didn’t trust it so used the gear instead which I thought was bomber. I’m pretty glad the bolt has gone. If you’re not up to doing the first moves just rap in and place the cams problem solved!
Mark Wood did you just check out the one slot? From the recesses of my memory there were several slots which I put gear in? Although it was quite some time ago
All right so I don't believe you've got a valid point of view unless you've done the effort to back your claims up, so I went out with a mate today to check out these slots and see what went in them.
I forgot to take photos but there are two slots, one above and one underneath the bolt. I somehow hadn't noticed the first slot (tunnel vision from having a bolt, clearly) but it takes a very good small cam from a good hold, without being too high or hard to see into. The second slot takes a couple of okay cams, but even if you skipped those the first cam would still catch you until you got the gear in the diagonal above.
Consider me converted, I don't think the bolt is necessary. It's bold, but safe to go ground up, anyone that wants to be safe and not bold can pink point it. I think also that the second bolt is a candidate for removal too (it seemed much more obvious a bolt to chop than the first to me, in fact). It'd make for a big fall if you fell off the end of the crux, but you could get a nest of bomber pieces in the horizontal at the end of the traverse. It would also make it an awesome, ballsy, Arapiles 24. Does anyone else have any opinions on this?
Robert - you are a legend for being open minded and willing to change your mind. Please consider running for parliament.
I think because bolt 2 is an original (at least, I presume it was there on the FA), I support it staying there. The nature of the climb has been established that way, and I feel it's in keeping with the rest of the cliff... so that's my vote.
Adam demmert, being on the more midget side of things the first moves present their challenges. For me these were the most difficult sequence of moves on the route bar the crux (which is one move). Given this, I am willing to go with the consensus. The position of the original bolt was such that there is no way I could have clipped it until after the crux. The repositioned location is better for me to clip, though quite difficult. I sometimes wonder why one is acceptable and the other not. Both the pin and the bolt were there for the original FA.
Robert Mudie I take my hat off to you sir!! Very well done in putting the effort in to check it out. As for the upper bolt your the one that seems to have actually led it most recently I would have to defer to you. I did a TR Lap awhile back but otherwise haven’t been there for ages so not sure!
Mark Wood did they have small cams when it was first done? Maybe that was why there was the pin originally?
I think Metolius TCUs came out in the US in 1983. I think the first one I saw was in early 1984 when Kim Carrigan showed me one. They certainly weren't readily available at that time. I'd be surprised if Chris Shepherd had access to any when he put the climb up. He wouldn't have incurred the cost of placing a peg if he'd had an alternative.
Thanks Rob! Chop the other if you like bring back proper trad!
My partner will be very happy!
Robert Mudie, firstly, let me add my congratulations for going out to investigate the situation then changing your mind when facts dictated that you should. I'm going to take you up on this point though- "I'm one of the people that like it that way but that doesnt mean that every route has to be dangerous." The notion that every route, or even a sizable percentage of routes at Arapiles are dangerous is laughable, hahaha. There is no shortage of extremely safe routes at Araps. However, given the current insane fad of adding bolts fucking everywhere, it's highly likely that dangerous, spicy, and mildly inconvenient routes will all become endangered species.
As Kieran noted it was very unlikely that Chris had micro-cams when he did the first ascent, which is why the dodgy pin was installed. The second bolt (fixed hanger) could be removed as gear is available at the horizontal. If someone removes it they need to be certain that the gear is good enough to take the rotation that will occur due to the rope coming in from the side (in the case where a single is used, though double ropes will have a similar problem due to the location of the belay). Damo, you are sounding a bit like Scott Morrison. All doom and minimal facts. There are still large numbers of dangerous routes at Arapiles if you want to lead them, and a huge potential for many more. Dare to come down and rack up a list
I understand why the dodgy pin went in in 1982, but fail to understand why the shiny ring was placed in 2018. There is close to zero potential for great new routes at Araps, bold, safe, bolted, or otherwise. Booroomba is the same. These places have been picked over continuously for 50 years and all the good stuff has been done. Too bad, should have been born earlier, don't fuck the crag up for everyone.
I did it in October 2017 and the bolt was there, and I think one of my mates said it was there when he did it in 2015. My issue was that if it was dangerous without the bolt, it was established by the FA with a pin, so having a bolt wouldn't change the feel of the route. What changed my mind was that it wasn't dangerous without the bolt.
Nice one Rob
You tall guys have no idea some times!!
I'll take that as a joke, Mark. It's incredibly important to preserve diversity of experience at Araps. That's the training ground which can teach people all the skills they need to climb anywhere in the world. I was mostly never good enough to onsight 24s down there, but the experience of trying to onsight them was extremely good for me as a climber. Sometimes backing off, sometimes committing and wishing I hadn't, occasionally succeeding despite fear and doubt. If you placed one or two retro-bolts on all the spicey trad routes down there, the potential for self-development would be ruined. There's plenty of things at Araps which I either tried to lead and had to back off or was simply too scared to even pull on. The option to rap inspect, pre place gear, or toprope is always there. I still haven't found a route at Araps which can't be brought down to my level via poor-style frigging. It seems so selfish and rude to bolt those things and take away resources from the climbers who have the skills to do them in good style.
The issue is that it's an unnecessary bolt. Whether there are more heinous offenders or not, it's still unnecessary. And I would very much like to take that crux bolt out. I think it'd make it into an exciting lead. But I'll take someone with aw worthier opinion out at some point, test the fall, and then have a discussion.
There's a super good cam in that slot, I could tell you which one, and it's a camalot, so it's not a rare piece.
If there are other unnecessary bolts that you think are worse, comment on the page so that the locals are aware and can take action if it's needed.
Nice one rdiddy
Let get out there @robert Mudie
Damo, I am totally into the diversity of climbing at Arapiles and have used it to build up to doing some out there routes at my limit. What I am saying is that climbers base a lot of assumptions about routes and their level of risk based on the average climber or their own experience as an average climber. Personally I found the moves at the bottom of Blue Eyed and Blonde to be almost as hard as the crux prior to the first good gear. Just look back in your heart to the 'Goodies' and their episode on the Jockey Rebellion and Apart-height and you may just understand a little (like Geoff - privately wishing for his reach!!).
Mark, I don't care. Araps is getting way too many squeeze bolts and convenience bolts, now it needs short bolts and skin cancer bolts? What end state do you have in mind? When will the product be finished and no more bolts added? Cause right now it looks very much like bolts are being added to; the next least convenient route, the next best slackline, the next most dangerous route, the next least squeezy addition, and the next most height-discriminating climb. It also looks like these bolt additions will continue indefinitely, and if we project forward 20 or 50 years at the current rate, the place will be a mess (and a sport crag). What is your proposed method for reeling the bolting in once your acceptable saturation level is reached? Why do you think that your acceptable level is more valid than anyone else's?
On that there ol' angry juice there Damo!! Did I ever say that we need to bolt the crap out of everything? Nah … didn't, just more yelling at the trees. Damn trees and their haircuts and loud music. Just relaying my own personal experience of this route. Take it or leave it. What is my acceptable level? Varies I suppose. Go and do The Rite of Spring at Death March Wall and report back to me.
More disappointed than angry, Mark. What I meant was, how many more rings will go into Arapiles before you think that there are enough? Another 100? 500? 1000? 10000? I thought that there were enough bolts ten or fifteen years ago. How many legitimate two or three star routes have gone in since then? Do you really think that a one star climb with a few bolts squeezed up against a three star trad route is net positive for the cliff? Are you guys going to sink to the depth of replacing the 60s carrots on Euridyce and Thunder Crack with rings? What are the limits of your renovation ambitions? We're all in the dark, I doubt that you've even thought about it yourself.
I think that 1,000,000 ring bolts should be added to the Mount next month, with glue that is fluorescent in the dark. Sorry Damo, you seem to make up what people think and do, and apply it as some sort of global shaming. Friends of yours have added lots of bolts to crags around the country and, therefore, I am holding you personally responsible (that is your rhetoric and as such you should do something about it). I have removed fixed gear at a number of crags around the country that are no longer needed or are in poor condition. I don't promote it because I don't need the adulation that the 'defenders of all that is righteous' demand. I would happily consider any list that you send me regarding Arapiles routes that you consider a besmirchment of your ideals, but I suggest that you contact the persons responsible directly first instead of tilting at windmills. BTW next time you come to the most desecrated crag in the land come over for dinner and a glass or two of fine local vino.
I was on this route a few days ago and was pretty surprised why there is a bolt up high when you can place a few cams in and the one needed at the hard scatchy start has been chopped. Though, my black totem couldn't fit the slot so instead 2 RPs went in and black totem engaged one lobe, which looked pretty ridiculous but saved my partners ass when he took a fall and 2 pros popped out. We want to come back the day after tomorrow for a sent and I got myself an offset micro nut which might stick better. Anyway, some of you might think it's great that bolt was removed but perhaps not all of us have micro cam to fit the slot. So in that case, I say after the removal now it might be dangerous for some climbers as there is a good chance of fall before you can put a decent pro in and also with drop into the gully pass the ledge there is not much options to anchor your belayer unless as we did use bolt from the route high on the left. In the end of the day in trad climbing you're the only one responsible for your safety and up to everyone to make own assessment.
There's the huge block to the left for an anchor for your belayer.
For the cam slot, that size micro is super common, so even if you don't have one, just ask someone else at camp. If every route that needed a certain piece at a certain place was retroed, there would be a tonne more bolts. In this case, the piece is common enough that I think it's acceptable.
I did test the fall off the crux without the second bolt and it's big. If you had a light belayer and you were on the heavier side, you'd need to be prepared ahead of time to stop a groundfall.
So we took another shot today to send this route. Came back with offset micro nuts hoping they might stick better as we couldn't get any other protection which could fit the slot. I am in the hospital now waiting for my climbing partner to be treated as a spinal injury hoping it's nothing more than broken pelvis as he hit the deck when black totem cam and nut popped out at the same time. Luckily I grabbed the rope to stop him going over the edge falling into the gully because anchoring me as belayer to the block couldn't do shit if there is a slack in the system. I hope you're happy now chopping off that bolt! Such a good climb gets ruined its great reputation after so many years with no drama because someone probably didn't wake up well in the morning thinking to show off that it can be climbed in bold and more dangerous way. Common sense just totally got dispersed and replaced by pure arrogance. You have what you want but please don't say bullshit like it's well protected. Also suggesting to add "R" to the grade.
Gear where bolt is chopped is rubbish, not everyone have micro cam and I doubt it will hold. You guys are narrow minded.
That's bad news. How is he? How did you get him out from there with his injuries?
Luckily, he's alright and things are not as bad as has seemed. Hopefully not more than a month of recovery. I built a several anchors to help him get out using a rope from one section to another higher up.
Good to hear. All the best to him.
For quite a while now you guys have been a walking accident searching for a location. Looks like you finally found the right spot.
For once I'm really glad of your stupid stream of consciousness on here, because it provides undeniable evidence of terrible decision making which directly led to the predictable and avoidable outcome. Take a look at your comment from a couple of days ago..."In the end of the day in trad climbing you're the only one responsible for your safety and up to everyone to make own assessment." You wrote that! And once your judgement has been proven to be poor, you're looking to blame everyone other than yourselves.
You two have been running round the country getting on serious routes which are way beyond your experience level, relying on luck to keep you alive. Take this as a lesson to change your entire approach. Calm the fuck down, ditch your ego, learn skills and technique, and approach serious routes with respect and humility. This might be your first accident but if you keep going the way you have been, it won't be your last!
And I think you should be banned from thecrag because in every discussion you contribute only with controversial offensive narrow-minded approach trying to disapprove and discourage climbers in every way obviously to get yourself an attention. Luckily, I don't give a damn because most of thecrag community and community of climbers around Sydney are the most supportive amazing people helping each other that one can ever imagine and whatever bullshit comes from your mouth I always happily flush to the toilet straightway. I would suggest you to sort out yourself but I don't think you're going to do it anyway so just leave us alone.
No surprise from such a comment from One Day Hero. Obviously we must know each other so well that he can judge! Typical syndrome of narrow minded!
I'm sorry to hear about that Martin, I hope he's doing okay. Glad to hear it's not as bad as you thought.
I think that's a good point Rdiddy: if you're not happy with the gear then rap in and preplace the cams above, or inspect the first cam placement. If you can't get a good cam in the start on the onsight, then you could always downclimb and rap in (or get your partner to do it if you don't want to see the holds and other gear beforehand).
I don't want to state the first cam because (personally) I don't like having gear beta when I'm going for an onsight. If you want to know the exact size you can send me a message. Or rap in.
I can guarantee though, without my ethics getting in the way, that there is an amazing cam there, that is not going to fail, as long as it is the right size.
Hi Rob, There is no way you could guarantee that any cam will not fail, particularly a micro-cam in a polished slot. Your preferred style is great (people always confuse style with ethics) though in this case maybe either mentioning the cam type and size, or changing the route description further to inform people that the route is now very dangerous at the start would be the best option.
Damo, sad effort.
Martin & Co, hope all is OK and the recovery goes well.
I don't know you Ludek, but I know your type. Yeah, yeah, you're a unique and special snowflake and all that......but you're also a type. And your type wrecks themselves with depressing regularity.
Keep going how you have been and you'll quite likely end up with a limp for life, or a wheelchair, or a pine box. Not every route can be climbed safely with high motivation and hangboarding. You need skills and touch and judgement, and you guys ain't got that stuff yet.
You obviously can't hear this from me because I'm the mean man on the internet who hurts your feelings, but you have to hear it from someone. Do you know Mike Law? Any of the good Blackheath climbers? Just put your big ol' ego aside and ask someone good and experienced what they think of your approach. They'll say the same shit I'm saying, but will probably sugar coat it a bit so it goes down easier.
Hey Mark, yeah I was definitely exaggerating when I said that, but it is an amazing slot.
I have updated the description to say it requires micros and to recommend rapping in to inspect it.
So rapping down inspect route and preplace gear is right way to send!? To me chopping second bolt above would make more sense then ruining route because shit gear down bellow. How about overseas climbers do they supposed to seek advice from locals? I think most of us want OS.
Slot from bellow looks good for gear but it's not.
You want onsight, yet you came back 3 separate days to this thing?
You knew the gear was questionable, you retreated from it a bunch of times, yet it’s everyone else’s fault when you deck?
I can’t even follow this logic
Here we go another narrow minded.
I don't blame anyone I'm questioning removing bolt! Asking people around and rapping route is not OS attempt!
I came back second time because I like it and know I can do it but placement was even worst then first day...
Okay let's follow through with this logic. If the placement needs a bit of gear you don't have, then it needs a bolt. Great. Okay so in that case we need to put in a lot of bolts. What about the people who don't have any trad gear? Guess it had better all be bolts. What about those who don't have quickdraws? Alright let's put permadraws on every route. Would that make you happy?
At the end of the day, choosing to chop, keep, or place bolts is the prerogative of locals who know the area. It has been discussed by locals, multiple of whom have said the bolt is unnecessary because there's good gear there. If you can't find it, it's up to you to make the decision to either risk it, spend more time looking, or use the lower offs at the top to preplace one high piece of gear. Like a lot of other routes at Arapiles, it can be done safely on the onsight, as long as you have the right piece of gear. In this case, at least the placement is low, so it's easy to bail if you don't have the right piece, which is a lot safer than a lot of other routes at Arapiles.
One day hero, Damian you are the epitome of a keyboard warrior. Its really just sad. Seeing as you got personal then so will I. Martin and Ludek give back to the climbing community ten fold with being involved in many community based projects, volunteering their time for crag care and always being available to support and guide new climbers. Damian, as a mature climber with plenty of experience how about taking the approach of facilitating positive conversations around issues instead of simply jumping to conclusions and being negative about everyone and everything. Climbers from around the world will read this.... what kind of impression do you want to give them about Australian climbers and our ethics and culture???
Oh, I didn't realize they did trackwork and bumbly guiding. In that case, Martin and Ludek are awesome dudes and it's completely fine for them to make awful decisions on trad routes way above their capability.....because climbing safety is mostly karma based.
Morons, this sport is being overrun by morons.
It's sad to see that someone with your knowledge and experience doesn't choose to use it to influence and help people in a positive way, but to sit behind a computer and make judgements and sound like a miserable human being
See, I reckon I'm the only one actually taking positive steps to keep your mates from eating shit. All the other experienced climbers on here are wincing at the clusterfuck of bad decisions in Ludek and Martin's stream of consciousness, but are too polite to say anything forceful enough to penetrate the ego deflector shield.
Have you considered the possibility that you're not helping? How will you feel if your supportive positivism ends up contributing to an accident? Would you even have the self awareness to recognize it as a contributing factor?
Based on the comments above, and from seeing the route, I'd agree with Ludek and Martin that to make the climb a 'safe' trad lead, that it could do with the first bolt.
Obviously this taps into the much broader question of whether every route needs to be 'safe'.
But I don't automatically follow the logic that because the First Ascentionist had bolts, that the route must always have those bolts.
Climbing leans this way for various reasons, one of them being that people will have information (old guidebooks) which has a climb written up to be safer than its updated state. So, individual people could feel, or be pressured to feel responsible for causing an accident...
But climbing is a 'Stop. Think. Do.' activity, in that just about every move you make can be re-considered with updated information...
With other 'nearby' bolting issues, I'd say this is a specific bolt problem for the long-termers of Arapiles to sort out amongst themselves as there are clearly other ongoing issues about the removal/placement of bolts.
It's not a 'booby trap' situation where a corroded or cracked bolt is waiting to be relied upon. The lack of protection is plainly obvious.
So, there's no need to rush a (bolted) solution to this.
As for Damo...
Has anyone ever watched the movie 'The Departed'?
Queenan: Staff Sergeant Dignam (Damo) has a style of his own. I'm afraid we all have to get used to it.
To make the climb a safe lead you need a small cam and enough experience to place it. That's the solution. If you don't have the right cam, ask around the Pines and you're sure to find one.
The locals (or longtermers) have spoken about it and that's why the bolt stayed out once it was chopped. That's what this thread originally was.
I don't know anyone in the latest batch of replies but the longer this drags on the more I feel inclined to study ODH's methods and have a rant of my own.
Ludek also posted something in the Mount Arapiles Noticeboard about finding someone to 'fix' a route on Mysteries Wall. If he's the kind of person who thinks he has the right to go over the heads of any locals and throw bolts in wherever he feels it's handy, then he needs to learn what's appropriate in the climbing scene. That's not acceptable at all. Even locals will usually consult with other locals when it comes to bolting.
As for ODH, people need to get over how he says things and focus on whether what he says is true. In my experience he's usually got a fair (if hard to swallow) point of view.
Truth is Troll. Snow is Black. Keep it up odh.
Robert Mudie nicely said
Ludek Sykora Martin Cankov I have small cams you can borrow and am happy to come out and help with placing them if you need
I found several good placements and even had friends fall on them and all was good
Glad your friend is ok but for me.
Having the bolt or listing the gear for would blow my onsight, I acknowledged the risk and use judgment and experience to undertake routes like this.
I,m glad the first bolt is gone and would be happy if the second bolt went as well.
It can be a perfectly safe all trad route with the right gear and experience
Thanks a lot Adam but we're back in Sydney now and I'll probably buy one of that micro cam for myself as it seems to be good to have it anyway
Mi Martin, never rely on anyone to tell you the gear is good or not. That is a judgement you can only make yourself. You can also learn from others. I am sure that the loudest critical voices still make bumbly mistakes but will never admit it. I have seen one of the most respected local climbers beef on about how good the gear was on a route (from his memory) then when he got up on it placed 6 pieces in a metre because he was freaked out by how crap the gear was. Gear wears, rock changes, memory is like a train (it gets smaller as it pulls away). The whole debate about fixed gear is an evolving beast and sometimes those casting the stones have an interesting back catalogue or are unwilling to take on their close friends with the same crap that they mercilessly lay on others.
Hey Mark, actually I do not ever rely on other people's opinion regarding placements. I mentioned that before and I will say it again that every individual trad climber is responsible for his own safety and to make own assessment of their placements. I don't mean to say of me being arrogant Mr.America of knowing the skill of trad climbing because I certainly just scratched a surface of what trad climbing means and I think it's not just me but all of us are still eager to learn more no matter how long we climb or how experienced we are because climbing is something that makes us tick but always stays to be a dangerous but adventurous discipline. However, the only strategy which works for me to get more knowledge is to climb more routes. There might be some who might advise you about the gear placement, which is appreciated but in the real world, it is not much technically possible of having someone to climb next to you to rate your placements. Well, there is never ever going to be the same gear placement situation anyway to learn from it and remember for the next time. In my humble opinion, the best strategy to learn for me is to use some basics of physics in combination with geology and stitch it up with common sense. I think the whole point of this 50+ comments discussion has slowly drifted away, unfortunately. Nevertheless, I dare to speak on behalf of everyone that we put down our thoughts and we do not feel a desperate urge to prove it right because firstly we are human beings and it's right to have their own opinion and secondly, we all rather want to focus our energy to do what we love, the actual climbing rather than discuss over and over again what has been said before. This is not parliament house:) At the end of the day, that bolt is gone, is not coming back and trad climbing is never going to be hundred per cent safe activity anyway. Isn't that the reason why we love this shit anyway?!
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