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Discussion: Offensive name

  • Started: 4 weeks ago on Wed 1st Jul 2020

Public discussion This is a public discussion for 20 Bitch! Dyke! FagHag! Whore!.

Support theCrag started this discussion 4 weeks ago.

Offensive name

This climb name has been reported as offensive. According to our policy and our current Stance as per this forum discussion the original name has been temporarily replaced by "Sanitize review" We invite the First Ascensionist to propose a new name.

We kindly ask you to avoid "editing wars" - changing names back and forth. This might result in the suspension of your account. Thank you for your understanding and for using theCrag!

Macciza a.k.a. Macca replied 4 weeks ago.

Seriously..!!!?? This will be somewhat difficult ... or rather, impossible!!! And the name is being taken completely out of context...

Maybe do little research ... Firstly this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitch!Dyke!Faghag!_Whore! B!D!F!W! is an internationally toured gay burlesque show ... I think it was in The Adelaide Fringe last year ....

And with all due respect to family and friends, Wade Stevens has ‘shuffled off this mortal coil’ RIP See Crag history

Just wondering, did someone actually complain about this ? Or was it simply flagged by some algorithm??

It seems the lunatics have taken over ...

Evan Wells replied 4 weeks ago.

This comment has been removed.

Macciza a.k.a. Macca replied 4 weeks ago.

And just to further muddy the waters, a google search of ‘sanitise’ reveals that it is actually a derogatory term ....

DEROGATORY make (something) more palatable by removing elements that are likely to be unacceptable or controversial. "the narrative glorifies and sanitizes the reality of war"

Not sure where that leaves us ...

replied 4 weeks ago.

Macciza a.k.a. Macca as our policy states we would appreciate the background of the name. If you have it and think it is not offensive please provide it in the route description and we will re-consider. We - and other users - have no way of knowing the background of a route name otherwise. Thanks for your help.

Macciza a.k.a. Macca replied 4 weeks ago.

The background of the name is referred to above. It is the name of a burlesque show by Penny Arcade, one of the great evangelists of gender tolerance and understanding. This show should be fairly well known within the LGBTQI+ community and is a celebration not a condemnation.I provided a link to its Wikipedia listing link above. Here is another link to a review of her show here in Australia. http://www.thebarefootreview.com.au/menu/theatre/119-2014-adelaide-reviews/1843-penny-arcade-bitch-dyke-faghag-whore.html It is not an offensive name to the community it celebrates nor should it be to climbing community.

As mentioned above the first ascentionist and developer of the area, which is named after him as noted in the Crag history section, is deceased, which is noted in the ‘Crag history’ section and so he won’t be able to make any comment really.

I can’t help but wonder, how many people have actually complained about this route name? Are route names to be reviewed based on a single sanitist’s request? I also wonder how they construct their argument of offence based on 4 uncontextualised words? It is not passing judgement, nor inciting anything... As mentioned, and referenced above the current replacement name can be viewed as being derogatory, perhaps it should be removed.

The name could perhaps be changed to B!D!F!W! but the full name would still be needed somewhere in the route listing to explain it all...

I still wonder just how many people have complained about this and whether route names are now to be ‘sanitised’ after a single complaint, and whether the complainant needs to justify the ‘why’ in the same way as people who are not ‘offended’ need to justify their position..

Aha. So it appears to have been changed by a very recently appointed administrator who, it appears, lives and climbs in South Africa, not a local Australian climber... I must say I find this all a bit weird...

replied 4 weeks ago.

Macciza a.k.a. Macca theCrag team are from all around the world. This change comes from theCrag.

Support theCrag replied 4 weeks ago.

Thank you for providing the background to this name, which was obviously flagged by mistake considering it.

replied 4 weeks ago.

I have to disagree with Macciza a.k.a. Macca   (I DID NOT complain about this name.   HOWEVER...) Just because potentially abusive, insulting, derogatory labels like "bitch", "dyke", "faghag", "whore", etc., are - according to you - not offensive within a small minority community within the broader Australian community DOES NOT MEAN that these terms are not offensive to other members of the broader Australian community.   NOR DOES IT MEAN that other members of the broader Australian community (including rock climbers) have no right to be offended by them.

Would you apply any of these terms to your wife, or your mother, or your sister, or your daughter, or any other woman you respect?   Would you stand by and say nothing if a stranger came up to them and addressed them in these terms?

What would happen to me if I applied any of these terms to a known lesbian relative or neighbour?   Under those circumstances offence would certainly be taken - and by the very members of the community that you assert are not offended by them!   Complaints have already been made to various anti-discrimination commissions for lesser "offences".   Would citing the Penny Arcade musical and asserting that because of it, and because of the acceptable use of these terms within the LGBTQIetc community, these terms are NOT offensive to them be regarded as a plausible or even reasonable defence?   I doubt it!

Rock climbers ARE members of the broader Australian community and are entitled to be respected as such.   LGBTQIetc community members can call each other whatever is acceptable to them within the confines of their own community, but NO minority group has the right to impose/force its standards on the rest of the community, whether potentially offensive or not, and expect the rest of the community to accept it without murmur or protest.   Such an expectation is plain arrogance and disrespect.

Macciza a.k.a. Macca replied 4 weeks ago.

Well I think if the name was allowed to be used every time the show has played in Australian, then it’s highly likely the Australian Classification Board has considered it allowable... not sure if they deal with Theatrical names though ..

Maybe do a little research ... the general public doesn’t seem to have a problem with the name, or the show ... Check out some reviews or videos online...it has a very diverse audience and receives 5 star reviews even from the ‘straight’ press... My daughters had no real issue with it and once I explained the context of the name that thought it quite strange that it was censored..

It seems quite strange that your final paragraph argues no ‘minority’ group has the right to impose their standards on the rest regardless of offensiveness and yet you seem to want to impose your morality on us all..... How do you justify these contrary positions...

Really, I’m sorry that you feel offended, but seriously, so bloody what! Being ‘offended’ is not an argument...

Macciza a.k.a. Macca replied 4 weeks ago.

Having just looked at your profile I find it amazing that you could possibly come up with the name change for your route at Kangaroo Point ...

Despite all the current discussion you decide on “Septuagenarian Sound Effects” ... really? I guess you think it’s ‘funny’ or something... I’m sure there are plenty of people who would find that quite offensive...In fact having looked after my Octagenarian mother I consider it in very bad taste... Have you joked with your elderly mother about such things, would you comment loudly about an elderly person in such a way ... yep old people make various sounds, that’s life, not sure it’s a suitable route name as it seems somewhat derogatory.... unless of course it’s a theatrical shows name that I haven’t heard of...perhaps you should change it ....

replied 4 weeks ago.

I'm not imposing my morality on anyone.   I'm objecting to a specific assertion that you made:   "...nor should it be to climbing community".   WHO is imposing - or at very least presuming - a standard in this statement?

Also, I did not anywhere in my previous post state that I was offended.   You are setting up a straw man, or clutching at straws, to suggest that I did.

My point if that any standard of language and behaviour is okay within the context of the community that accepts it.   But the context is important, even crucial, to the acceptability of the behaviour or language.

I repeat my previous assertion that it is arrogant and disrespectful of any minority group to presume that because certain language is acceptable to them that it MUST be accepted by the broader community and that no member of said broader community has the right to object or to politely request more respect and awareness of context.

In case you're unaware of it, in the broader Australian community "bitch", "dyke", "faghag" and "whore" are NOT polite terms.   Within that context, a respectful person would refrain from using them.   Most people can cope with vulgar language, but it does cast self-judgement on the user as being a person who does not respect others around him (or her).   That's all I'm saying.   YOU decide how much respect you think the rest of your community is worth.  

replied 4 weeks ago.

Or perhaps YOU should be aware that I AM a Septuagenarian, and that I am also a fairly audible climber - much to the amusement and frequent comment of those I climb with.

Further more, if I am still capable of putting up first ascents in another seven years' time, I WILL call one of them "Octogenarian Gasps and Grunts".

And I won't apologise to anyone for so naming it, because those who KNOW me will also know how much effort went into it (and will probably also be a little bit envious that at eighty-something years of age, I can still do it).

As always, context is relevant.

And as previously, you're grasping at straws.

Macciza a.k.a. Macca replied 4 weeks ago.

So hang on, let me get this straight, a small minority supposedly can’t impose something they consider acceptable on the greater community... and yet at the same time a small minority ie you, can impose what you consider to be acceptable on the rest of the community ... I’m talking about the SSE route name which can be interpreted as ‘demeaning’ and ‘derogatory’ ... (though I am not offended) The ‘OGG’ one isn’t ,,,

And just for the record, I don’t consider either of them to be particularly ‘offensive’ - offence can only be taken, not given ... perhaps if you had made your point clearer in your first post I could have addressed it more directly.. As to whether citing the fact that it is the title of a show to some Anti-discrimination Board would a defence? Well yes it would. Bitch!Dyke!FagHag!Whore! is a 5 star show that has run for 30 years with an acceptable name as evidenced by the fact it has played here, probably a number of runs, without issue on the name... With the name now standing, and a reference to the show provided, maybe people will look it up and get educated... I’m outta here....

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