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Discussion: Downgrader Kneebar?

  • Started: 7 weeks ago on Mon 5th Oct 2020

Public discussion This is a public discussion in World.

Alma started this discussion 7 weeks ago.

Downgrader Kneebar?

Regarding the article by https://kletterblock.de/en_GB/2020/10/kneepads/ Kneebars/-pads are downgrader?

Tobias Auth replied 7 weeks ago.

Yes.

replied 7 weeks ago.

If after a route is put up and graded the repeat ascensionists find better beta which means it can be done at a lower grade, then yes, the lower grade should apply. It's the same for better beta enabled by kneepads surely?

replied 7 weeks ago.

ah; but what about cracks with Crack gloves. Do those who used gloves get to downgrade handcracks that they find easy to climb?

replied 7 weeks ago.

I don’t think you get to down grade the climb, you just don’t get to take the grade.

replied 7 weeks ago.

This comment has been removed.

Alma replied 7 weeks ago.

I think the problem is the comparability with historical ascents. But the problem always arises with technical developments. "Action directe" will probably always remain 9a, no kneebar can be used in the route .

replied 7 weeks ago.

Will Vidler don't take it seriously, but shoes are ok? Or do we grade barefeet like they do in Stolby, Russia?

replied 7 weeks ago.

The real question is will we ever be as hard as the Russians? I think that modern climbs are all established with fairly equal access to all of the fandangled gadgets that help us get up blanker and blanker pieces of stone. So here shoes, knee bar pads, etc etc should either be cause for a direct down grade (bc the FA could have used them if they’d thought of it), or more likely the FA used them and the grade will stay the same. But i feel with historical routes a little more nuance should be allowed. I quite like Alex Megos’ ethic of climbing the boulder how he wishes and being completely transparent with his ethics and proposing a grade for his ascent style whilst maintaining the historical significance of the problem/route. I by no means think this is a bullet proof argument, i think it has a lot of arbitrary aspects to it, but where there is the opportunity to climb a route in the original style i believe that that is the best way to go about it and that is ultimately the grade of the route. That is the gauntlet that was laid down and it is the climbers choice to bypass sections of it or not, but if they take the short cut i’m not sure they then get to say they ran the gauntlet.

replied 7 weeks ago.

Fancy idea: sperate grades? This is already often the case if you climb with or without defined aids etc. the rest position 2m to left or something like this.

Alma replied 7 weeks ago.

Other idea, bann the restpoints ;-).

replied 7 weeks ago.

facepalm

Freddie Chopin replied 7 weeks ago.

> Other idea, bann the restpoints ;-).

Nah, to hard to explain what you can or cannot do in the guidebooks. Easier to just fill good holds with concrete (;

Tobias Auth replied 7 weeks ago.

Grades are not comparable anyway. Some prefer to keep grades forever, others (or other local communities) adjust grades more liberately. This, combined with a variety of biases and other effects, make it essential for the individual climber to think about the context of the area, first ascensionist, etc.

Concerning the downgrading I agree with Will Vidler "where there is the opportunity to climb a route in the original style i believe that that is the best way to go about it and that is ultimately the grade of the route."

But, in the end, that can be discussed between those who put up the route and those who climb it. I believe its not really an issue to most of us.

I also understand that it is "ugly" to have grades saying "7c, original method 8a" but ultimately that is the more precise way and if that is the "official" grade or not does not matter much. Because it just reflects reality.

Jef Van Alsenoy replied 7 weeks ago.

Does adding additional pro (trad gear) alter the sport grade of a route? Conventionally speaking?

Ludek Sykora replied 7 weeks ago.

If the climb can be done easier way then downgrade. If you don't want to do kneebar it's your problem...

Konrad replied 7 weeks ago.

> Does adding additional pro (trad gear) alter the sport grade of a route? Conventionally speaking?

This is a different topic and depends on the grading system. Most of the sport route grading systems only rate the difficulty of the moves, not taking into account protection (at least in theory).

Also, clipping more often actually make the climb physically harder, which is why a lot of high-end ascents have a lot of skipped draws

Jef Van Alsenoy replied 7 weeks ago.

Konrad Definitely so at the high end of the spectrum of climbing ability... but as a mediocre climber I can definitely get a confidence boost out of an additional piece of pro that can weigh up to the pump of having to place it. But if falling does not upset you in the context, you're definitely right. And that's the case for most high end sport routes (overhanging).

replied 7 weeks ago.

Jef Van Alsenoy as mentioned already, the grade in most grading systems does not take the protection into account. Some grading systems use additional protection ratings (see also here: https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/gradesonthecrag#protection-rating and tehse would certainly be impacted. Also, the UK grading system takes the "exposure" into account - so the answer is "it depends"

Konrad replied 7 weeks ago.

As does the Saxon very relevant, I know.

Grading actually gets pretty complex (and sometimes inconsistent) when you get into the minutiae. If you're not a pro competing for sponsors, just climb and have fun.

Jef Van Alsenoy replied 7 weeks ago.

Yes, I love the English E-system. Very complete! And it depends is most definitely the best answer.

Jason McCarthy replied 7 weeks ago.

I've seen more people with sub optimal knee bar skills struggle with crucial knee bars on a route than the other way around.

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