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Discussion: Female first accent addition

  • Started: 9 weeks ago on Thu 30th Sep 2021

Public discussion This is a public discussion in World.

Jack Brown started this discussion 9 weeks ago.

Female first accent addition

Hi everyone just starting up a discussion about trying to get the history field of a route added to this fantastic site. Would love to hear everyone’s opinion on the addition of female first accents to the site. As I think this would be very helpful to further develop and show climbings history and achievements! Thank you

replied 9 weeks ago.

We probably only need the one FA field.

Monty Curtis replied 9 weeks ago.

That's never been how first ascents are recorded. There is one first ascent - and everything after that is a repeat. It can be repeat as a particular gender, age, disabled, nationality, season - whatever you choose. No need to have this info attached to every route listing though. It would quickly spiral out of control. The info for 99% of routes would also be "lost" to history in regards to first female ascents as this was never recorded in guidebooks.

JSBC replied 9 weeks ago.

The beauty of our sport is about movement and being progressive. This is a great idea Jacko!

I can see how there’s not a need for it on every route (just like any route that’s created on the crag- some routes are FA unknown) - but it definitely should have the drop down option when editing any route. So that way it can be chosen or not - just like any FA information. Bernii Ulfi

Andrew replied 9 weeks ago.

First ascents are first ascents.

I think you need to argue WHY a "group identity" ascent is needed or even a good idea.

Any clean tick is essentially a first ascent for an individual, why introduce immutable characteristics into the mix??

replied 9 weeks ago.

Agreed 99% of routes will never need this - but IMO its a good thing to keep a record of "badass" first female ascents. Although it'd be good to get a female perspective seeing as its only blokes commenting here so far! E.g.: https://www.verticallifemag.com.au/2017/03/climb-like-a-girl/

In the meantime Jack I reckon go for it without waiting for a new data field, just stick info in the route description a bit like this (imo with less details on male repeats): https://www.thecrag.com/en/climbing/spain/lleida-area/route/260108622

replied 9 weeks ago.

Totally with Will! It sounds like a good idea, but let's hear what all think. In the meantime, we can do it manually while Ulfi figures this out (together with that "like" button that would have made this entire post much faster )

Adrian Yeet replied 9 weeks ago.

Unnecessary.

Wouldn't we then need a "male first accent" category as well? and then what about people who do not identify as male or female. Do we create a category for each identity? where does it end?

Monty Curtis replied 9 weeks ago.

Reading that Vertical Life article I noticed they used FFA for "First Female Ascent" which was a bit confusing. FFA in guidebooks in Australia has historically stood for First Free Ascent (when someone frees the aid from an old route).

replied 9 weeks ago.

First Free Ascent is a gender neutral term. Which allows for whoever manages this. Agreed a Female First Ascent field is a great notion, though also confusing abreviation wise (maybe FFFA is better?). And Adrian makes a good point r.e. different identities outside of binary. Gender neutrality and building on respect around this topic is probs a better focus, rather than causing room for potential Male V Female fueds around FAs. A topic already causing many fueds (FA details in general). This being said, in terms of this adaptation being made to theCrag, would you as a woman log First Ascent / First Free Ascent, or First Female Ascent / First Female Free Ascent if you were the FA in general? A broad topic worth exploring more:).

Mark Gamble replied 9 weeks ago.

First Ascent and First Free Ascent are gender neutral.

Social media is pretty reliable for keeping us updated about breakthroughs & achievements in climbing, regardless of gender.

If we we're talking about awards, or credits, then yes, that's a different story.

Belledonna Brown replied 9 weeks ago.

This is a great idea!

In a male dominant sport why should we not take this opportunity to celebrate female achievements.

I personally would love to be able to open the crag and find Paige Claassen's name on Dreamcatcher as the first female assent.

Angela Eiter makes the description on La Planta de Shiva but not the route history section. This is history!

My question is why would you not want these achievements recorded here?

replied 9 weeks ago.

If you look at route details, often you'll see the name of the FA (or FFA). From the name you can see if is a male or female, or mostly. As a collaborative site, it's upon users to keep feeding infos and details in blank fields. After all this is a route database. But I'm with Mark Gamble with this: FA are gender neutral.

replied 9 weeks ago.

+1 Mark

replied 9 weeks ago.

Another option might be to use the list functionality. Here's one:

AU First Female Ascent at the Grade https://www.thecrag.com/en/list/5313124461

Kai replied 9 weeks ago.

+1 to stay gender neutral. It's Already possible to add another FA entry for the first female ascent and comment in the note.

Mark Gamble replied 9 weeks ago.

Of course, there is the fact that practically every other sport in the world is split into 2 gender categories, more if you include a disabled category. Tennis, swimming, athletics, football, cricket.....

I'm sure Simon is shuddering as we expand this thread (ROFL - just kidding Simon). Don't know what the logistics are of splitting thecrag.com into 2 gender categories?

Stefan replied 9 weeks ago.

FA/FFA are gender neutral. Stop making things about gender which really are not.

Maybe implement a "notable ascent" or similar to highlight ascents or achievements like on La Planta de Shiva.

Jack Brown replied 9 weeks ago.

Some great feedback and plenty of great ideas from people which is really appreciated keep it up.👍 I feel as something to recognise for a female first accent or notable accent to make it easily seen and accessible would work really well for other woman to aspire, relate or work towards these great achievements keep the feedback coming in and some female opinions would be fantastic as they do represent the other half of the population thank you!

Ali Stemmler replied 9 weeks ago.

+1 gender neutral. First ascent is first ascent, no matter which sex or gender.

replied 9 weeks ago.

It would only make sense for harder routes. For easier routes most of the notability for the FA is for the discovery and equipping, not for the climbing. I don't think anyone cares who the first female to climb the crag warmup was (unless they happen to have discovered and equipped the route)

Rick Helm replied 9 weeks ago.

I think it's a great idea. Would be nice to get some more input for the ladies.

Evan Wells replied 9 weeks ago.

I think a 'first totally gay ascent' (ftga) would be the obvious next step.

TimTam replied 9 weeks ago.

What abour First Female Under Five Foot Ascent? FFUFFA?

TimTam replied 9 weeks ago.

Or First Asian Female Ascent? FAFA??

Evan Wells replied 9 weeks ago.

'First non asian female notable attempt' FNAFNA

replied 9 weeks ago.

Climbing is dominated by men. The most comments in this discussion are from male climbers. My one and only comment: I would like to read more about the opinion of Angela Eiter, Paige Claassen, Margo Hayes, Sasha DiGiulian and many other female climbers, no matter of being a professional climber or not.

Monty Curtis replied 9 weeks ago.

I get inspired by clicking on the "ticks" of routes and scrolling through all the people who have done it. Lots of interesting historical info in there - some people write small essays! Isnt that how this website works? You can claim whatever niche you want using the tick function.

replied 9 weeks ago.

Female climber here to offer my opinion. I think some of the recent commentary highlights why other women might not be giving their voice.

I recognise that first ascent is a gender-neutral term, however climbing has historically been male dominated and still is today. The majority of first ascents are done by men maybe we can look at the time many areas were being established as to why that might be. Men are highly represented in the sport as ground breaking in establishing some of the best climbing spots in the world. It’s great and I appreciate it.

Recently we are seeing more and more lady crushers making notable accents and levelling the playing field. The first female ascents of Dreamcatcher and La Rambla were ground breaking because it showed women have the potential to go toe to toe with men in a sport. Unlike weightlifting or running where men’s records stand well above women’s, we are seeing that perhaps in climbing women might be able to show up and participate with men as equals.

I love looking at a climb on the crag and seeing a woman has sent it. It’s inspiring! Representation matters. It’s like the 4-minute mile once it’s done the flood gates can open. If a female ascent is shown maybe it cracks the ceiling for more women to try.

I think the notable ascent option is great so we can be more inclusive. Climbing is progressing and it’s exciting that this conversation is happening and I hope we can continue to have this conversation with respect.

replied 9 weeks ago.

Fully agreed. Would you say then that notable ascent (which already exists more or less on theCrag under FA extra notes when editing FA details of a route) is the better option, or making a whole seperate category of ascent type (as a tick option / FA field option)? Which is what this thread is about, despite its tangents.

Mark Gamble replied 9 weeks ago.

Good post Meredith thank you for your input.

Nick: sorry mate, your post is denigrating to women, you might want to review it.

:-|

replied 9 weeks ago.

What are all these "accents" anyway?

replied 9 weeks ago.

Additional to previous comment - the only info that pops up is an image of a book when an extra note is made on an FA when editing the route, rather than the note itself. Which you need to click on to read. A new category of ascent type / FA field might be the nicer looking and inspiring option then to acknowledge First Female Ascent properly on theCrag. Rather than a comment in the route description (which is the usual choice atm).

Rick Helm replied 9 weeks ago.

Well said Meredith. Totally agree.

Jack Brown replied 9 weeks ago.

Brilliantly said Meredith outstanding to hear!

replied 9 weeks ago.

All for it, although I have no clue how to represent it or what it should be called

replied 9 weeks ago.

Thank you, Meredith Apple.

Aleksandra Balyanova replied 9 weeks ago.

Another woman here +1ing Meredith Apple’s take.

replied 9 weeks ago.

BTW, for the cocky males answering only one type of FA count: don't forget most of your routes were climbed by goats, spiders, and geckos well before you learned how to bully

JSBC replied 9 weeks ago.

Agreed ^^^ Gabriele G

Very well said Meredith Apple - my perspective also.

Keep moving forward lads - and make room for the ladies. 🦾💪🏼

Hannah Skjellerup replied 9 weeks ago.

Agree with Meredith Apple !

Some of these comments really highlight the lack of inclusivity in climbing. I don't see anything wrong with celebrating first ascents from diverse groups.

Hannah Giles replied 9 weeks ago.

very well said and absolutely agree with Meredith Apple

it would be so incredibly inspiring to see females represented in the sport performing at that level!!

Angus Davidson replied 9 weeks ago.

Great idea, would be awesome to see the females names as well as the males just like %99 of other sports

replied 9 weeks ago.

Discounting arguments provided in support of maintaining one FA field as "bullying" by "cocky males" is just a vacuous claim that distracts from and avoids actually responding to the legitimate points those people are making.

We have a local legend in the Hunter, Vanessa Wills who has put up a ridiculous number of FAs during her long climbing career. I think that to introduce the idea that women can repeat a route first climbed by a man and claim a 'First Female Ascent' as something historically significant detracts from the ACTUAL first ascents by women like Vanessa. Those women went into a male dominated sport and just got on with it without demanding special gender allowances.

At the same time, it was awesome to see Mélissa Le Nevé crank her way up Action Direcete in the latest Reel Rock, or hear that Angie Scarth-Johnson cracked into 35 just the other day (only the third Australian to do so). These accomplishments are certainly inspiring for myself and my climbing pals (female or otherwise). The pointy end of human achievement has always been celebrated, regardless of gender, and social media, news sites and magazines already capture this very well.

If its inspiration you seek, you can use theCrag already to see what badass women have climbed a route you are aspiring to do. Just use the filter feature on the list of ascents which already allows you to filter by gender.

In my opinion, the only thing that matters historically is the GENDERLESS FFA/FA, so this should be left to stand on its own with all repeat ascentionists treated EQUALLY.

Josephine Roper replied 9 weeks ago.

I agree with Luke FWIW. The filter function works for inspiration, ascents that are noteworthy are captured in other ways (including, at the pointy end, thecrag accounts of top climbers, community managed or not, which can note any particular specialness of an ascent in their ascent comment).

replied 9 weeks ago.

Luke +1. Also, if there is one truly inspirational climber to me, must be Vanessa Wills.

replied 9 weeks ago.

I'm still trying to figure out what all the tick/ascent options are on the Crag haha. I don't have an opinion on the tick type, as I largely use only one tick (the hangdog!). I use theCrag to record personal challenges/achievements. The rewards of climbing are personal and unique to each climber.

However, first female ascents have indeed been recognised in both climbing and mountaineering. Women had to overcome greater obstacles just to be able to achieve at the same level. Is it fair to say only genderless FAs/First Free Ascents matter historically, if certain groups in society had neither the means nor support to be able to even go for the FA? That's like saying your nationality is irrelevant but then discounting the fact that certain nationalities/cultural groups were "invisible" in certain sports. True equality doesn't mean treating everyone the same- it means realising that certain groups were not even allowed on the playing field, and therefore sometimes extra support/recognition IS needed, to be able to encourage greater participation from that group.

Read Michael Meadow's excellent book about SEQ Climbing history and you will see why he records first female ascents as being historically notable. Also recommend Gwen Moffat's memoir, or Arlene Blum's book about the "Woman on Top" expedition, or Bill Peascod/Bill Birkett's "Women Climbing: 200 Years of Achievement". Luke Yerbury it is not true that the pointy end of human achievement has always been celebrated- historically, some groups have had to work twice as hard for equal recognition, and have faced criticism/dismissal.

It's true that female climbers are now climbing at a level where the margins between genders are narrowing to almost non-existent, but that is a more recent development. I don't really mind where historical information is recorded, as long as it's recorded somewhere visible (e.g. route history or route description).

JSBC replied 9 weeks ago.

How cool are chicks!! Not sure why there’s so much chick “knock backing” here. Yeahhhh chix ! *edited

Wade Stewart replied 9 weeks ago.

I think it’s best to ask the opinion of people like Viona Young,Vanessa Wills, Meg, Jenna Brady, Vanessa Peterson and the crew of awesome woman we have here in Australia bolting and doing FAs etc what their thoughts are. They’ve spent many countless hours bolting routes and freeing them.

What happens on routes where woman did the first ascent? Do you then log the first man to do it? I think genderless ascents is best and represents true equality but that’s my own opinion. I feel like everyone should just support each other no matter what gender or background.

replied 9 weeks ago.

I know the last thing this discussion needs is another male chipping in but i agree with Meredith that females and other groups need better representation among our sport (As well as elsewhere). I believe the acknowledgement of notable ascents Eg. First Female ascent, First Non Binary ascent, etc. Is something that could and should be improved and would help our community.

However as Wade and others have pointed out there are many awesome woman and others who are bolting and doing incredible FAs. So i figure its worth noting that making this distintion in the FA listings specifically may also further a sense of seperation as some may see it as an unessecary distinction. As the term First Ascents is genderless despite our sport being very masculine.

My two cents would be the use of a notable ascents section as its more inclusive and impowering to a wider range of people without having the unintentional seperation that the FA section may cause for some.

Im really curious to hear from people of a wider range of backgrounds and gender identities about their opinions.

I will add this can technically in a way be done in the description section of routes currently. However i really support the idea of a specific dedicated section which may result in it being utilized and seen more.

replied 9 weeks ago.

I have been reluctant to comment so far, not because I don’t have an opinion, but because I do not want people to confuse my personal view with ACANSWs desire to support inclusivity and diversity. Personally I feel that there is only one first ascent, and that can be by anyone who has the desire, time, stupidity, funds and passion to put time in to clean, equip if necessary and climb a route. I can only speak from personal experience, but this isn’t an ego driven process, more an expression of creativity, exploring possibilities and sometimes the easiest way off! The relentless push to create and develop new climbs isn’t necessarily a good thing-just as the economy cannot sustain endless growth due to resource limitation, neither can climbing. That aside, there are definitely barriers to females and non binary people to do first ascents, given it often involves power tools which people may not have had exposure to, and an ability to be scrutinised and a degree of self confidence. If we ever get out of lockdown and the beta climbing festival gets up and running, a workshop on bolting and route development considerations would be a great topic, making sure that female route developers are part of the presentation and instruction panel. Perhaps even separate workshops. However acknowledging and hearing about other than white male ascents ( sorry white males) is always good, and I have been known to look through the ascent list on the crag, and am always inspired to see that Carol, or Jenna or Caroline or Meredith have ticked something, just as I am inspired by para climber achievements, and more recently am getting inspired by people aged over 50! So I don’t think all routes need a female first ascent, but adding notable female ascents of significant routes in the history, and supporting diverse groups to be able to create new routes is to be encouraged. One of the most inspiring stories in Wendy Bruere’s recent anthology was that of the Iranian women who were supported to develop new routes despite significant opposition at several levels.

replied 9 weeks ago.

Vanessa Wills thanks for sharing your view, and I especially appreciate what you have to say about sustainable climbing development. Those workshops sound like a fantastic initiative. Heartily agree that notable ascents (i.e trail-breaking) should be included in route histories, because it's interesting/inspiring to read. Will have to check out that Wendy Bruere anthology!

replied 9 weeks ago.

It seems to me that some are misinterpreting the question here. Two facts:

  1. Nobody is proposing that every single route should have a first female (or any other type) ascent recorded.

  2. Nobody is proposing to eliminate the gender neutrality of First Ascent.

The question is whether "Other Notable Ascents" or "Notable Ascents" should be an option in this menu below (see fig), together with first free ascent, route setter, and route maintenance (!!!). Now, I have replace a couple of bolts, but did not record it, so there is no trace o thecrag of my route maintenance. Why? Because it did not feel important at all, to me or to anybody else. However, sometime for some route it will feel important for the community to celebrate those who restituted a route to all of us. That's why the option is there.

The same will be for "notable ascents". It's an option: if and when the community believes that a female ascent is of particular importance, it will be possible to record it as "notable ascent" writing "First Female: X". Whenever we won't care, we won't write it. So simple. And in any case it won't change the record of FA or FFA in any possible way. It's just an additional info for when the community believes it matters, the same as route maintenance or route setting or first free ascent

I perfectly understand others may oppose or disagree. However, the argument cannot simply be that there is only one type of thing we want to record. That is not true now and will never be true. I am all for hearing arguments for why we should not record notable ascents, but they should be coherent. Not simply knee-jerk reactions that sound exactly like the arguments made against all sorts of minority inclusion policy we hear in the broader community. I.e., if you are worried about the gender neutrality of FA, it's ok, but explain how including further ascents of note based also on gender or other characteristics of the human who did them vilifies anything about the First Ascent.

JSBC replied 9 weeks ago.

Gabriele G nailed it. Perfectly articulated

Monty Curtis replied 9 weeks ago.

Route maintence history is not about celebrating the person who did it. Its about recording the specific information for land managers (date work completed, bolt type, glue type who did the work etc). I personally don't use that feature but im sure there are climbing regions that do.

Monty Curtis replied 9 weeks ago.

"Notable ascent" in that pull down menu seems a reasonable suggestion. It will be up to the community to self manage that it doesnt get abused by listing 10+ variations which would make using thecrag as a guidebook unwieldy (you dont want to have to scroll through pages of names listed on every route). Don't under estimate the need for climbers to "claim" things - as seen in the hundreds of contrived linkups etc added to this database during lockdown! This isnt a curated website.

Some of this route repeat history is best left as a "tick" of the route rather than listed on the route description itself. Some other style related non-gender related history I would be interested to know... first solo ascent, first green-point ascent, fastest time (for multis especially) - this list can obviusly expand endlessly.

replied 9 weeks ago.

Many years ago Will Monks and I had an in depth, opinionated discussion on the correct manner to record FA's. At the time it was not a pleasant discussion however I came to understand and respect his belief. It's been many years in the coming but thank you for initiating that discussion Will.

I was 're'-developing a crag that most certainly would have seen most rock climbed over, however the crag only had three recorded problems. Respectfully I could not claim the FA on the majority of problems/routes at this crag and understandably so. Will identified I could record my work in the Extra Notes section identifying myself as the First Recorded Ascent. These ascents were, in my opinion, notable ascents and the Extra Notes section plausibly fulfilled the recording of this information. My friend and his wife who also helped 're'-develop this crag used this field to record their notable First Recorded Ascents as well. It served the purpose of recording notable information and is there for all to access should historical information wish to be reviewed.

A secondary point of recording notable information is the in Comments Field available to all climbers when logging an ascent. This information is freely available for all to review, and as free text can record any notable information deemed necessary.

Essentially, an FA is an FA regardless of who the individual may be or even identify as. Like me, if the individual identifies the need to record notable information, there are fields already in existence for this very purpose.

replied 9 weeks ago.

Monty Curtis: So we agree.

I believe it would be great if we could then focus on just signaling approval or disapproval for this proposal that seem to capture a good compromise among many of us:

Proposal. To add "Other Notable Ascents" to the ascents drop-down menu (see fig.). As a community, we should then keep an eye it does not get abused.

Monty Curtis replied 9 weeks ago.

Fyi - if you have a private thecrag account your ticks and comments are not viewable to everyone.

Mark Gamble replied 9 weeks ago.

The more I think about this, the more inclined I am to jump ship.

The most prestigious tennis tournament in the world - Wimbledon - has 2 singles champs: male & female. A Marathon race is 42kms long, but has 2 recognised world records: one for men, one for women. The FIFA World Cup event has 2 countries recognised as world champions: one male team, one female team, and so on and so on.

A First Free Ascent for male and female would be a logical step in the right direction.

"First Ascent" is a bit trickier as it represents the first time a human has been over that bit of rock.

Excellent post/thread with largely positive responses!

replied 9 weeks ago.

Just to clarify Gabriele as it may not be immediately clear to everyone. Is this what you are proposing. Because if so then yes i think this would be a fine addition. Apologies for the lazy photoshop.

replied 9 weeks ago.

👍 Gabriele G

replied 9 weeks ago.

Mark do you see climbing as a competition?

replied 9 weeks ago.

Mark Gamble - you might be the first person in the history of the internt to change their mind as a result of a discussion thread! . But seriously, I think having the option of an notable ascent as indicated is a sensible addition that respects tradition while allowing progression. Speaking as the dad of a 12yo girl who's just really getting into climbing, she looks up to other women climbers as role models so having some notable ascents marked out might be encouraging to her and others in the future (when she's crushing harder than I ever will!). It's a subtle but important form of inclusion.

replied 9 weeks ago.

+1 from me, I could have used this field, although it would have been for other kinds of ascents

Can I also propose the option to leave it empty? Many sources just state a name and a date, but not if it is a FA, FFA, or just bolting the route, and right now I have to lie and say it is a FA.

replied 9 weeks ago.

Zac Schofield: yes (keeping of course the fact that there are multiple "ascent" fields--I think currently 2 of them, but could be extended to 3)

replied 9 weeks ago.

for the point made on "arrogance of only allowing humans as FA" by 2nd post by Gabriele G - while I dislike the stereotyping & confrontational style.

+1 for Kai's sugggestion to stay gender neutral and +1 for Stefan's concrete suggestion of new type "notable ascent" (with note field for details) because of the core of Monty Curtis's, Andrew's, TimTam's and Evan Wells's posts: 'Notable ascents' is fully inclusive and gender + identity + group neutral while "just" having 'FA' and 'female FA' is IMHO ultimately privileging females. Not only compared to men - e.g. if FA was a woman, the first repeating man would not get a similar recognition as in reverse sex roles, because we'd not have a 'male FA' type so the man would not show up in the route's history chart while woman did - which is strictly seen also unfair but may still be acceptable seeing the percentage of male FAs. But especially compared to so many groups that do get limited appreciation and/or need to invest an extra portion of dedication to reach the same goal: diverse gender identities (experiencing difficulties in many socienties), age groups like 65 years plus, many variations of disabled and injured, nationalities facing stronger restrictions, etc. As Adrian Yeet pointed out, we could create dozens of "FA-types" and it would still not be really fair.

For example, e.g. Belledonna Brown and ThomasMertens and Meredith Apple do see climbing primarily male dominated, but IMHO that is only secondary while it is primarily "western world" dominanted: A lady from Australia will most likely experience way less hurdles to climb hard routes or be FA in e.g. US or Germany (so a foreign country for both persons!) than a young Rohingya man that needed to flee from Myanmar to Bangladesh - think alone of how easy it is to get a visa for both, or reflect some seconds on how that man shall fund the flight, the required deposit, the equipment, food & transport while climbing. If that is too concrete, alternatively, reflect on the percentage of non-G7-state nationals amongst top-climbers compared to their percentage on world population. Would you still claim domination of climbing is primarily defined by male gender?

IMHO not; i.e. I strongly second Jelena Shipton that many groups need to work twice as hard for equal recognition.

This is IMHO the core reason why Cris Brazzelli is true - from e.g. Indian or Chinese names, I've nearly no chance to guess the gender, but only from "western" names. Surprisingly, I can infer the gender of maybe 90% of top climbers.

To summarize in a provoking way: Ladies of "western" nationalities, instead of focusing on feeling disadvantaged compared to "western" men, start focusing to rejoice how privilegded you are compared to the majority of earth's population! And let's introduce 'notable ascents' that are open to every human being - also including you

TimTam replied 9 weeks ago.

👍 GeorgD

replied 9 weeks ago.

Not sure about my opinion, but sure about this:

Never in my life have I witnessed an online-discussion about a controversial topic that long stay objective, friendly and polite.

Love you people

replied 9 weeks ago.

How good is it the Rogora just sent Erebor 9b+!

replied 9 weeks ago.

Totally amazing send.

Elliot replied 9 weeks ago.

Honestly Laura Rogora's send of Erebor is unfortunate. It is a great achievement, but for me, it is tainted by questions about her weight and health. Especially at a time like this when so many female climbers are talking about their battles with unhealthy weight.

Julian Parsert replied 9 weeks ago.

I think the notable thing about "first ascents" is the fact that SOMEONE (regardless of who) has put in the time and effort to work the moves etc. and has also therefore proven that it is at least humanly possible. So, if at all it would make more sense to call something "First female repeat" and "First male repeat" and leave the "Ascent ungendered".

Nikita Miltiadou replied 9 weeks ago.

Absolute no brainer. Drop down for First Female Ascent, conditionally displays against First Ascent for routes where that info has been entered.

First Female Ascent is already a part of climbing and thankfully so. As for how far does it go comments, anything else can and should be listed as a notable ascent imo.

This doesn't represent a floodgate that tarnishes the purity of the sport, it's a continuation of a dialogue of inclusiveness that pushes the sport forward.

I would however support a grade limit of 8a for this I think.

replied 9 weeks ago.

+1 for Julian Parsert 's suggestion with "repeats".

replied 9 weeks ago.

Hey everybody,

personally I don't have a fixed opinion and respect every living creatures and achievements, regardless of gender, first ascent or repeats

But just for the technical solution: Doesn't the route description field already offer a perfect solution to list and highlight first female/male ascents/repeats, notable ascents, etc. in every freedom and length wishable?

For example the route description of the world famous Action Directe not just list first male and female ascents but all of them. (Though the first male and female ascent could be highlighted )

The disadvantage with defined bounded features is, that they probably need to be changed and extended later. That's why I like flexible solutions like to use the route description field also for this topic. And it spares our loaded dev team

Cheers, Flo

Monty Curtis replied 8 weeks ago.

The Action Direct example is a great history lesson - but makes the "guidebook" functionality of this website suffer hugely. Having to scroll through a 400 word history lesson for a 15m sport route is a little unwieldy. I know this is a particularly significant route but its a good example of a worst case scenario for recording lots of names/claims.

Monty Curtis replied 8 weeks ago.

Here is an example of where this is heading - people claiming "firsts" in very specific things (first non-binary trad 5.14). https://www.rockandice.com/climbing-news/interview-lor-sabourin-first-gender-neutral-climber-to-send-5-14a-trad/

Evan Wells replied 8 weeks ago.

Elliot I have just finished some brie on generic aldi jatz , followed by ricotta cheese pastizzis and a pizza, and about to drink a hot chocolate. I admire anyone with an eating disorder, it shows true determination and grit. A truly diverse society should include those sinewy skeletors that have wandered in from the arid wastelands where a handfull of small lizards might last you a week. If anything im envious. If you havent starved yourself for four days straight you havent lived. Its like floating.

Daniel Gensemer replied 8 weeks ago.

I feel like a 'notable ascents' section should simply be included. It could include first female ascent, youngest ascent etc. This would highlight major achievements in the sport without the clutter. The problem with putting 'first female ascent' in the same place as the FA or FFA is that the First Ascent position isn't made for celebrating an achievement, it's simply providing details about the route's creation.

replied 8 weeks ago.

Monty Curtis , I think all but 21 climbers in the world (R.I.P. Wolfgang) use the information on that route here as a history lesson. And "Action Directe" is a great example. And a milestone, one of Wolfgangs masterpieces. This is like the Wright brothers' first flight. Will we change the description a bit once there are 50 ascents? I guess so...

I think that we all will have the tact (Fingerspitzengefühl) to not let it escalate to a point where I add as a notable ascent "FA by a 43-year old ex-teacher with one eye closed".

I second Daniel Gensemer : Only mention it, if it really means something. Where is the line? We as a community will find out and discuss it out. And grow.

With the story of Lor Sabourin: I for one wouldn't mind two lines of text in any kind (description or notable FA) giving that information here on thecrag. Again: If it means that much to that very group of humans right now, why not? It doesn't hurt anybody. And we're not talking about a repeat on any old crag, but sending a grade for the first time. And there won't be too many more categories coming

Nikita Miltiadou replied 8 weeks ago.

Monty Curtis if I was non-binary and got into climbing, and that article popped up I'd have a hero to look up to that looked like me, faced the same challenges I face and was able to succeed in the sport - it may prove an outlet for teenagers or young people who are non binary to perform in a sport where their identity doesn't cause them issues in team sports. I'd be motivated to follow in those footholds so to speak and that's what it's about.

Climbing has been inclusive of the fringe from the get go. Missfits, outcasts, rebels, climbers of all ages and sexual preference. Celebrating proper hard milestones by the fringes of society is such an amazing quality of the sport. Climbing is the great equaliser and I'd happily scroll through multiple notable ascents of a 5.14b ranging from first ascent through to anyone else that is underrepresented. It's worth keeping track of historically and any argument about clutter is just UI/UX, leave that to the web devs

Thankful for the discussion and totally appreciate your points 💪

replied 8 weeks ago.

Nikita Miltiadou :

UI: user interface? UX: ???

Ken McKeon replied 8 weeks ago.

I find it ironic that in a discussion seemingly about equality there is an inherent inequality to the actual events in question.

A “secondary FA”, in my eyes, can never be seen as equal. It’s not about the hard work of the FA but rather that a subsequent ascensionist likely having beta and being unescapably chronologically later.

The claim to an FA, after-the-fact, seems a somewhat hollow, all be it perhaps noteworthy event.

So, isn’t this creating a sense of gender inequality in a previously non-gendered space? To add a female FA that comes AFTER a male FA (and vice versa) can’t be seen as equal surely?

replied 8 weeks ago.

"UI: user interface? UX: ???"

UI is, as you guessed, "User Interface", and I think "UX" is "User eXperience".

Nikita Miltiadou replied 8 weeks ago.

Thorsten Koch - User Experience.

There will always be the, "but first ascent is literally the first person to equip and climb the route". I think we're all on the same page there. There's no lack of understanding or will to dilute this.

Ken McKeon - A pathway to diverse representation in the sport is by listing notable FAs to classics and traditionly hard routes in order to inspire the next generation. It's a choice to mature the sport and to find all the future crushers out there. 👌

Cool if you don't agree, you're not wrong 👍

Ken McKeon replied 8 weeks ago.

Screw the next generation. There are too many people at the crags anyway. Better off having them play SJW on thecrag from their keyboard anyway.

I suggest we go all the way an allow all subsequent, noteworthy (by who's definition?) "first" (second) ascensionists to hyphen the FA's route name with their own second name. It seems only fair and equal.

For example, Action Directe-Action Warriors

It's even more ironic that "Directe" is the feminine singular of Direct.

Ken McKeon replied 8 weeks ago.

Nikita Miltiadou

You are forgetting the very nature and advantage of thecrag.com is that it is a community driven database.

Adding a feature is site wide. Do you think this will be limited to "notable" FA's of hard and classic routes? Of course it won't.

Every climber with an ego that thinks they are doing an notable (not) "FA" will add their own tick. That sure is a "diverse representation" as you put it.

replied 8 weeks ago.

I understand the fear that new people with new egos will mess things up and/or dilute things (though not everybody can edit routes).

BUT (an important BUT ) it's totally worth the risk. There will always be jerks and/or weird people. We have them already, there have been many, and there will be new and of new kind. But the alternative--a top-down decision on which type of route deserves notable ascents--will not help anybody.

The beauty of being a community is also in the risk of it. I like being in a dwmocracy not because I believe most will vote always for the right thing, but because the option of top-down choosing what to do is worse. As a community, we'll find new things that matter and will all laugh together at the weird ego that will claim to have the first X-type ascent of some 19 slab. And so what? Other than some laugh, how is that going to be a real issue? What kind of ego do WE have if we are worried about that?!?!

replied 8 weeks ago.

I have been following this closely because it is fascinating! A lot of good (and some strange) opinions but very respectful. I could sum up my view as follows (after reading the above and forming my opinion):

  1. There is only one FA - this shouldn't be diluted at all

  2. The noteable ascents idea is very good and would be the most appropriate (both aesthetically and I imagine practically for the programmers) for this platform

  3. Although the comments about inspiring others are completely valid, they are not valid for this forum. This is a guidebook, not a magazine or a blog. I doubt anyone is here to find their true meaning. The comments above regarding 'where does it end' also do have some merit - to include one is, in practice, to exclude/invalidate all others

  4. Contributors to this thread (particularly those without a pink supporter ring around their picture) need to give consideration to this being a free-of-charge service. Changes cost time/money

  5. The correct answer is the one that impacts the useability for the community as a whole the least (i.e. a noteable ascent only)

Happy to be wrong on the above, but long story short the noteable ascents would seem best.

replied 8 weeks ago.

Would be interesting to see the implications if a "note worthy ascent option" is the way forward.

There are some other "noteworthy" ascents which then will surely pop up as well; e.g. "shortest / tallest climber who managed to do this route", "youngest / oldest climber", "heaviest climber" etc...

Ken McKeon replied 8 weeks ago.

My partner (has vagina) has suggested thecragette.com. Dedicated to humans of diverse gender in order to focus their unique and wonderful female achievements in the inclusive climbing community. This way all the female first ascents won't get lost in all the other male stuff, will be easy to find for everyone to celebrate!

Or maybe go bolt some routes.

Ken McKeon replied 8 weeks ago.

Oh! And don't forget the all important FTRA

First Top Rope Ascent!

replied 8 weeks ago.

This comment has been removed.

Frank Evans replied 8 weeks ago.

It's been my opinion that the gap in performance/capability of men and women is pretty small, and these arguments are moot. Trans first ascent? thecragette? firsttopropeascent? lololol I'm gonna need a large bag of popcorn to get through this thread.

replied 8 weeks ago.

MichaelPeak : I think that sums it up pretty well and also mirrors us. Really: if you got a problem with some bytes of information that don't touch the key things and essence like grade etc., you got a problem with your ego and not the others.

And good point in pointing out the nature of this here: a guide. So go find a nice crag, do some great climbing, log ascents, make a topo.

So it doesn't matter what we come up with here. Or does it? It won't change how thecrag works, but maybe it will change us.

Now I'm gonna add some FA-data of times when men were climbing with hats and women with long skirts

replied 8 weeks ago.

After reading a lot of the good arguments in this thread, I must say I agree the most with the suggestion of Will Monks : use the route description field for any kind of notable ascents.

As was pointed out several times, notable ascents are not needed for almost all of the routes here on theCrag. So, why the need for creating a technical solution that would be used in only a tiny fraction of routes? I don't see any significant advantages over the functionality that is already available.

replied 8 weeks ago.

FTR I prefer a notable ascents field. Even though it will (hopefully) stay empty for 99% of routes, it makes genuinely notable ascents searchable which would be good.

replied 8 weeks ago.

A big thank you to all participants of this discussion (and for all the feedback we also received directly and via social). While we were very reluctant to inroduce a gender based field we think that the proposal to introduce a "Notable ascent" history entry (on top of the 4 existing ones) addresses several issues raised here and elsewhere.

It will also allow to "shorten" route descriptions as in the example given for Action Directe while providing more structured information at the same time.

Please bear with us for a while until this is implemented.

JSBC replied 8 weeks ago.

Nice one Ulfi 👏🏼 How good is progression.

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