Discussion: Barefoot tag

Barefoot tag

As someone that ocationally likes to climb barefoot, I have recently started to try to send harder stuff barefoot. Was wondering if anyone else would think a "Barefoot" tag would be useful when logging ascents. In the same way there is a "With kneepad" tag

It should be a STYLE not a tag. Vastly under-rated, and seldom practiced. A true art, which is beautiful to watch

All about it!

I think it is important to acknowledge this style of climbing! it'd be useful to have a tag for this. I personally have done few barfoot slab bouldering and I think this tag is missing here!

I'm here for it!

Love the idea, I also do barefoot climbs every now and then. They can really change the whole character or a route.

We could add that as an ascent tag (same category as eg with kneepad) - thoughts?

Ulfi - can you also please add First Ascent and First Free Ascent as an ascent tag? You have removed this option with the upgrade. And also carry over this info from old ticks so 20 years of history isn't destroyed.

I personally distinuish also between toprope solo OS/RP/AF/attempt in my comments. So (top)rope solo and also lead (rope)solo should be own categories like sport/trad/toprope/freesolo/aid.

So for (top)rope solo the same styles as second/toprope: onsight/flash/clean/hangdog/attempt/tick.

For lead (rope)solo the same styles as sport (onsight/flash/...) and/or trad (greenpoint/...) as well.

I did my first barefoot climb the other day on a fairly easy route. I never had so much fun before!!! Keen to do it more often

There are several technical reasons to climb barefoot: Easy pitches in long routes, kids who need new climbing shoes every other month because the feet are growing too quickly, very hot or cold weather, polished rock, friable rocks, wrong choice of shoes (ie. you are on a slab and only have your super downturn gym shoes), loosing a climbing shoe or just the lack of money to buy climbing shoes. Or as a training to master a situation like on of these.

Climbing barefoot just for the sake of climbing barefoot .. does not make it easier, so I think a new tag is a good idea.

Actually climbing barefoot in overhanging pocketed limestone makes it easier by pulling your hips closer to the wall with your foot ;-)

Heath Black the FA tag is available

#barefoot

In other words: just because some obscure style makes an ascent have a slight difference in difficulty, I don't think it warrants a hardcoded tag. Thecrag already has hashtags, you can go crazy with those if you like, but I don't like the idea of having too many fixed checkboxes because the usefulness of those tags is always debatable.

I've been using the #barefoot tag for years and it's working just fine, you can search for it in ascents and it's immediately visible if you look at an ascent comment:

https://www.thecrag.com/ascents/with-hash-tag/barefoot/by/quaestor/?sortby=when-climbed,desc

Christoph Rauch I had no Idea you could do hashtags! That sounds enough for me, but still support the creation of the tag.

Also as a not to everyone that enjoys climbing barefoot: sandstone is the best for this, so enjoyable and is not even that much harder.

Ulfi Agree with you. barefoot send as an ascent tag is a good option!

barefoot tag would be a great addition. also like to do it sometimes

+1 for the barefoot tag. For me a much more relevant feature than the kneepad and crack glove tags. Although like Christoph, I've been using #barefoot which also works well.

Tagging barefoot/kneepad/gloves, etc. is totally unnecessary. If you're so worried that you can't log it exactly how you did it so everyone can see it, use the hashtag or a mention on your comments. Are we climbing or creating a bragging CV?

A "hold marking" feature for (pre)chalked/ticked, etc. is borderline absurd. Again, there is a comment box.

😂🤣😅

Kudos Alonso!

(Wait! Can we set-up a tick for climbing in a yellow T-shirt?)

Yes but climbing shoes are aid.

I agree with alonsoATCO and Christoph Rauch. Just put it in the comment and use a hashtag, if you really want to.

(Mark Gamble Maybe Lasportiva would sponsor the site, if we create a tag "climbed with Lasportivas"? which would of course lead to a slightly lower CPR...)

Why not have list with reasonable practiced climbing styles people CAN choose from? Maybe SOME appreciate the suggestions what can be tagged (and climbed). No matter whether predefined or self-defined, they are tags anyway. Nobody will be bothered, no need for arrogance.

And yes tickmarks are a big thing in no-chalk-areas, maybe not understandable for sportclimbers.

I do a lot of trad in the UK, but the idea of requesting tags or features to log whether you climbed a route with pre-placed gear or not (just as an example), is ludicrous. You want the world to know? Comment box. Someone asks? Honesty rules.

Can I have my tag for when I climb blindfolded now? Jhonny Dawes is also lacking a feature so he can log every hands-free slab climb he's done. But I also like Mark Gambles idea of a yellow T-shirt one, I have lots of those.

sigh

> the idea of requesting tags or features to log whether you climbed a route with pre-placed gear or not (just as an example), is ludicrous

Isn't that just a pink point - which already exists?

I do agree that adding more tags can go too far though.

I climbed some 25s barefoot and two sport routes purely on gear at wave wall. Didn't log it because ... Guess what....nobody cares! I did it for my own reasons. The variety of challenges anybody can set for themselves is unlimited.

Exactly

Evan Wells yeah at first I thought the same. But it's just a tag. And the reason I put a lot of routes on here of because I forget the routes I've done. What does it hurt you anyway if people can tag it!?

Nothing hurts but essentially the function already exists by typing your personal attire choices in a comment. Brian Berthon and Dot Butler managed without tags. Real people in real aussie towns with everlasting legacy's for climbing and hiking barefoot.

They on the crag?

Guys this is just a logbook, and having features to log the climbs more accurately is good. It is not for bragging, afaik nobody goes to my logbook to see what I have been climbing. I just would like to see what climbs I did barefoot, say, at the end of the year. If I wanted to brag about a climb I would post on instagram.

Stop acting like you are so offended by this, I don’t think it would be a problem for anyone that doesn’t want to use it.

I cannot stress this often enough, but for some people, this site is more than "just a logbook", but a community and a platform they have invested a serious amount of time and effort into, so they might have stronger opinions than someone who uses it as "just a logbook".

That aside, if people have a right to request features, others must also have the right to oppose the idea. The time of the devs is limited, and while I agree that this is probably a minor task, it does take up time to implement and we do already have a feature that allows to do the very same thing, just more versatile. I could imagine that the very idea of implementing custom hashtags was to avoid having to implement user-requested tags one at a time.

Funnily enough, at the moment there seems to be no way at all to search for climbs you did with a certain new-style tag (like "with kneepad", "crack gloves", or "ecopoint"), so Manolo Ruiz even if the tag got implemented, you would have to wait for the search forms being updated.

"Funnily enough, at the moment there seems to be no way at all to search for climbs you did with a certain new-style tag (like "with kneepad", "crack gloves", or "ecopoint")"

Did not know that. Fair enough, seems like I will be using the hashtag for now!

Decide by vote?

I’m afraid that’s not going to be representative and also in no way binding, the devs will decide in the end. ;-)

The missing search is on our list. That will be fixed sometime.

The kind of considerations we look at for making something a structured tag versus hash tag is:

• Is there any advantage for the whole community to use the same tag.
• Can the community/climber benefit from search or stats.
• Is this something that that effects the difficulty of a climb that is worth noting.
• Is there some benefit of having an icon.

For now we will keep listening to the discussion. Voting will not effect our decision.

My take on those points:

• If everyone uses the same tag you can search if someone has already climbed that route barefoot and maybe read comments on the difficulty/beta

• The climber could search all their barefoot climbs if they had a specific goal to pursue.

• It definitely affects the difficulty generally making it harder, especially for small footholds or sharp rock (depends greatly on barefoot climbing ability)

• Sure an icon of a foot would look nice.

Not sure this is of enough relevance to justify a tag. Have never seen anyone climbing barefoot so far apart from some videos on YouTube. What about climbing blindfolded or at night with a headlamp then ?

nonsight is the ethic

Everyone I've ever met who sometimes climbs barefoot, normally keep it to themselves and definitely don't log it anywhere if on a personal notepad. So I doubt a search on tht style will produce many results.

Thecrag platform is already overcrowded woth things and is getting quite slow to load. It takes forever sometimes and is getting tiresome. If anything I think the whole thing should be streamlined, rather than overloaded with ludicrous features.

That tag already exists, alonsoATCO …

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't quite see that here: https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/ticktypes#lead-ascents

Only general on-sight and general flash, but no specification of whether QDs are ore-placed or not.

Probably because it's pointless, and a personal thing, just as barefoot/kneepad ticks.

alonsoATCO, there is a "gear on" tag in the new ticking interface.

"Thecrag platform is already overcrowded with things and is getting quite slow to load. It takes forever sometimes and is getting tiresome. If anything I think the whole thing should be streamlined, rather than overloaded with ludicrous features."

Totally agree, theCrag is terribly slow sometimes and it's getting worse. It's really annoying, sometimes waiting for minutes for pages to load. It really turns me off to contribute more content... (says somebody with 1.6 Mio Karma). If something needs to be fixed, that should be priority number 1.

Strangely gratifying to hear that I'm not the only one waiting 5mins or so for a page to load.

Surely it must be the algorithms used here? FB doesn't take but a second to load and has 100,000 more features.

I must admit I never have this problem. Must be my $120 Motorola

Never had problems either. But I also have a cheap motorola. Very cheap.

It's not about the phone, all other webites are loading fast, same on computer. It's a theCrag problem for sure. Maybe for non-australians or europeans?

Is it a problem? Comparing the crag to darpas life-log or insta-death is madness. Until Alan McLeod or Whitney Webb inform me about the revolving door from military and uninteligence communities into thecrag then its incomparable. I know I'm a bit contrarian however I genuinely have no issues loading anything (and I know its not the phone) however it may be what's on it.

In the peak hours in EU evening it’s crazy slow on all computers or mobile devices. I even stopped contributing because it drove me nuts.

No issue in the EU morning tho.

It definitely is a problem when editing. It feels like going back to working on 56k modems. It's also slow when surfing the site, generally. But when editing it's basically a HUGE pain in the backside.

Definitely need some patience to use it in NL.

https://github.com/theCrag/website/issues/3976

Must be Putin then. In ashtrayia its fine.

Hmmm, I was going to suggest a look at service providers, since there are only 3 Networks here in Straya, but users in the U.K. and Eu share the same issue.

Would appear to eliminate area within Australia, as well as "generation" of local network as a reason for the delays.

Evan Wells nah im in oz and I get really bad lagging issues too sometimes and same with a few people I know

Since this has ventured very far offtopic, allow me add to the chaos: "How can I stop these random discussions from showing up on my main dashboard?"

Also, I guess since I am here to add a little to the discussion: adding a barefoot tag albeit stupid (imo) wont have a significant impact performance wise on most modern web applications. It's just a tiny bit of extra metadata which should only be a couple of bytes. I haven't actually performance profiled the crag (but I'd be happy to and send some suggestions if the crag is interested in hearing them) but for most web applications it's the frontend assets that take a while to download, parse & execute.

Does this mean I have no front end assets?

Evan Wells Best post of the thread so far.

Barefoot is king. Web speed is slug at best. Does anyone know what it is served from... like a single core laptop in Bali? The comment about "10 second window" in this github thread are what I experience a lot.. and it's defo NOT my computer/modem/fibre/telstra causing the delay. https://github.com/theCrag/website/issues/3976

Glad someone raised the issue of lagging. I'm about to turn off my monthly $ contribution. This has been a long-standing issue and the new logging interface has compounded the delay. I now perceive a mismatch between my desire to support the service and the prioritisation of development resources. The issues that impair my experience are: 1997 loading speeds (almost every visit, both computer and Android, based in NSW), and just on the phone: sudden jumping to the top of the page when scrolling, and frozen page when resizing.

I don't care about fine details like the presence of ascent-style tags, and care a lot about loading speed and non-surprising interface behaviour. (But while I'm at it, I dislike emojis for rating my perception of route quality. So, I don't tend to choose one at all and just ignore that field.)

Mike Daws "1997 loading speeds" indeed... like.. with dial up tones screeching ... ping gong ping gong scrrrcccccsssssshhhhh

Agree with the emojis instead of stars... what on earth is that about?

So ... I typed too soon. A few days after smugly stating I have no problems loading and using the crag. ..jeeeeezuss kah-ryste!...it actually freezes my phone now! Doesn't just not load but I have to actually close my browser tabs to exit. Around the same time searching for a climb leads me to the slum lord industry that is gutting out communities . oh the improvements! I might resubscribe if it gets any better. I love how the green slime at the top says 'improved logging interface' that's a good one too.

ROFL 🤣🤣🤣

I hate the lack of multiple send generic application (like I redpointed the 7 sends I was trying to log but you want me to specify that for all 7, where previously I could just log that as a group). I'm not massively opposed to the emoji thing but I don't know why it needed to switch from stars or any other rating system to emojis. I'm not in favour of the switch). All in all in think the switch to this 'new improved' logging format is a bad one but I did think the old form needed some adjustments that the new style has included. But I think it has updated the poor things but made the good things worse. I don't understand why it needed to do the second half of that update.

Back to topic though. I think a small metadata update for a tag update with a choice to barefoot style your ascent is great, why not? The #aspect seems like a good thing to be doing but no reason not to have access to both. As far as I can see it the crag is a logbook/guidebook with additional features. Seems to me if you want to log something one way or another then you should be able to do it. Doesn't affect anyone else.

Lastly streamline the functions of the crag for sure and increase the server stacks to help the system run if necessary.

I support all you've said. Specially that update that removed the multiple send and now forces you to go one by one.

Evan Wells No one else could possibly express it as elegantly as you did.

Since this thread is going more and more off topic, I've opened up a thread for the new XMAS Release here: https://www.thecrag.com/discussion/7025077695/xmas-release-2022

Wow! 5 weeks ca. 100 posts No conclusion!

Barefoot meets our underlying rules for being a tag candidate. We have a tagging system with 150 tags so one or two extra tags don't make much difference for performance. There is a Wearable category for ascent tags so it has a place to fit with minimal impact on the UI. We see no urgency in adding it though so it may be a while before it goes in.

As far as overall site performance issues raised we are aware of these and have or will answer in other discussions.

great idea, I started climbing barefoot more often at my home-crag "Pumita", it´s the future of climbing!(also Nico Favresse told me that hahaha!) At Peñoles one day I did twice "Pancho Villa" (V6), first with my old Acopa Gama, then barefoot, which felt awesome and actually some moves felt easier haha...

What about climbing with chalants? Or without them?

... or completely nude (SCNR)

https://www.hesse-film.de/bilder-zum-film/?mobile=1