Discussion: Where'd all the original route descriptions go? Even if the earlier unnamed routes have been rebolt

Where'd all the original route descriptions go?

Even if the earlier unnamed routes have been rebolted (something that was desperately needed!) and reclimbed recently, it's a bit disrespectful to claim FAs. It's also a bit dubious to name them, despite the original names being unknown. It doesn't take much to figure out who the original developers were and get in touch with them for details.

I think this sort of thing has been going on all around Sydney in the last few years. Younger excited climbers claiming FA’s on stuff that’s been done before. Especially boulder problems that aren’t on the crag but in some old guide book.

Well maybe if you have some historical information that they neglected just go in and edit it? More often than not its just a case of them not being aware...and if it been done and not recorded previously, who cares if someone documents an FA..it can always be adjusted later.

Yep. I'd rather the climbs get put up here for everyone to go and discover than they be neglected in some old out of print guidebook. A gentle explanation and edit of thecrag would be all that's needed (after they finish rebooting and cleaning of course

From what I can gather, the Sydney Rockies pages had only names for two of the routes - ‘Left Wing’ and ‘Wake Up Time to Fly’. The history of those pages can be found at http://routes.sydneyrockies.org.au/confluence/pages/viewpreviousversions.action?pageId=1310829.

I for some reason thought Martin Pircher was behind some of the development, I think it was him that took a grounder when a bolt pulled so always thought he was part of development?

Stu Dobbie’s original description on the Sydney Rockies on line guide reads “Developed during the 90's by Peter Martin and friends, the Elanora Heights crag is probably one of the best hard sport crags in Sydney. The rock here is generally excellent and most of the routes are steep and hard. The crag also has a pleasant outlook over Deep Creek, and because of the direction it faces, it's good on both summer mornings and winter afternoons. As of 1998 (when I checked the crag in detail), the crag was still under active development, and as a result there were still quite a few projects. These are marked in the usual way (a bit of tat tied to the first or second bolt) and you are reminded to stay off such routes unless you have been invited to attempt them by the developer. To get to the crag, park in Amaroo Avenue, Elanora Heights, and find the track leading away from the road, opposite number 10 (a prominent landmark is a blue car door about 10m into the bush). Follow the track to the first rock platform, then scramble down right (facing out) until you see a small red gum on the edge of the cliff. Climb down the three steel rungs below the tree, then continue right (facing out) until you reach a set of old etriers tied to a bolt. Climb down these (with care!) to the first section of the crag. Be wary of the bolts at the crag; there have been a number of reported bolt failures and some of the routes are in the process of being rebolted. During 1999 guidebook author Martin Pircher pulled a bolt while leading a route here, resulting in a 10m ground fall and a helicopter ride to hospital. In addition to the climbs, there is some slightly seepy and dirty bouldering between the two climb downs. The crag lies within the Garigal National Park. Climbs described right to left (facing the cliff).”

Is the blue car door still there

FWIW the late 90s Sun, Surf, and Sandstone online guide had route descriptions for somewhere between 20 and 30 routes here (though names & grades were only known for about half a dozen). That guide become the core of TheCrag's information for the Sydney region circa 2002, and the (partial) descriptions at Elanora (and other crags like it) were preserved as is.

It appears more recently that someone has gone in and removed / renamed all of the unknown climbs, leaving only a handful of what was originally recorded. It's this round of edits, which occurred entirely on TheCrag, that I'm concerned about.

And yes I've seen Ranger Dave and his bouldering buddies claiming FAs on things that had been climbed since at least the 1980s, and I endeavour to fix them when I see them. But I don't live in Sydney any more, don't have ready access to the source data for Sun, Surf, and Sandstone, so I'm no longer a great source for up to date info on the local crags (despite having visited something like 90% of them between 1996 and 2002 for the SSS guide).

Have you been to Elanora?

Hey mate, just to clarify further, we've been trying to re develop/develop Elanora for over two years, the first 6 months of which was to simply obtain information and data in regards to the entire crag layout.

After rapping every single line in order to obtain data in correlation to the Sydney Rockies guide which wasn't complete, we believe the information obtained was from somebody looking from the ground rather than a first hand source. I've been in contact with some of the original route setters who have proven that the Sydney Rockies guide is incorrect.

In addition to this, there was quite a lot of project tags left and after 20 years it is fair to say that these projects have now become abandoned. This is a really complicated scenario, since as a local this place is a real gem and it should be climbed and people should enjoy this area. We've taken the time to plan, rebolt, clean and develop new lines for everyone to enjoy.

If you have any more first hand information on any of the unknown climbs, feel free to add them on the crag. We are not really interested in creating any issues, our sole purpose is being able to climb and make it safe for people to enjoy.

Cheers mate,

Lucas

P.S.: maybe we can catch up for a climb at Elanora?

The National Library of Australia has an archived version of the Sun, Surf and Sanstone guide from 2002 and while it has route descriptions, it has letters in place of climb names. It can be accessed at http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/30482/20020830-0000/www.sydneyclimbing.com/index_frames.html

Magdalena de la Torre yes - I visited twice in 1997 or 1998. At that time the crag was still under development, which made including the crag in SSS a tad contentious. Given that it's taken 20 years for the crag to get a (much-needed!) makeover, history seems to have shown that the original developers' concerns about publication leading to theft of projects were unjustified...

Lucas C love your work - just want to ensure that the history of Sydney's many crags is protected and celebrated accurately (and yes, I may be a bit oversensitive, given the retro-FA shenanigans Ranger Dave and his friends have been up to all over the place). Given the active development at Elanora at the time, the developers I managed to get in contact with were pretty tight-lipped with details, resulting in the unknown/partial route descriptions that ended up on SSS (and, later, TheCrag and the Sydney Rockies site, both of which were sourced from SSS). The two exceptions were Steve Kelly (who shared a lot of great info with me all over Sydney), and Martin Pircher (who didn't develop any routes there, but was friends with some of the developers and "destructively tested" the bolts on some of the routes...).

Donald Gibson oh nice - I'd forgotten about that. I have the source data for SSS somewhere as well, but it would be hard to resurrect (the website itself was generated from a database - I still have a dump of the database from circa 2003 when I pulled the plug on the site). I threw out my (copious!) notebooks a few years back.

At the end of the day thank you to any and all of you that give a damn. You make the world we live in. Special respect to those that give their time and hard earned for the benefit of all. I took a walk there a while back and keen to get on it. Cheers.

Good work to Lucas and team for adding another much needed 'modern' sport crag to the northern beaches. Preserving history is one thing, but being dogmatic and keeping shitty bolting is another.

Greetings to our fine community, just a quick hello from behind the scenes of the Elanora rebolt developments.

All efforts have been to give the crag the attention it deserves. The game plan is to have it finished in time for winter, when temps will help with the slick nature of some of the holds on some of the harder lines.

I remember seeing the cliff back in the 90's and a feeling of awe. 20 years later I'm thick in the mix of the awe, and it's awesome!

We have also expanded the original line up of routes to add over 10 new lines in the moderate grades, creating a more even spread of grades and not just limit the crag as 'a hard mans paradise'.

Finally a HUGE thank you to the original crew who got in there and set the original routes. Without you guys this would have been a colossal task.

If we can get the details of who set what line for the abandoned projects, then that information will be added to the route history. Also any details of first ascents that may have been lost will be accredited accordingly.

A Child

Thanks guys, and thanks Peter I totally understand.This is really not a project I have taken lightly, and I understand your perspective and what happened to ranger Dave is unfortunate but as humans we make mistakes and I guess it's up to all of us to simply correct misinformation.

Anyways, I really hope to see all you guys down there, Elanora is truly a really amazing crag and now we can all enjoy it!

Lucas

Jules Truong - I think you climbed with a few of the boys who bolted Elanora in the 90's... Were you friends with anyone else that climbed there? trying to uncover some old climbing history.

TY to Peter Martin, Steve Kelly, Jason Rutter, Scott Wilson, Pete James, and anyone else who helped with the developing of Elanora Heights. (edited for thread sense)

Ziggy Samways no one (that I can tell) is advocating for preserving the crag in the state it was in. What I am asking for is that the history is preserved.

Rebolting is bloody awesome & more power to you! Claiming FAs and/or renaming existing routes is not.

Of course Pete. What ever details we have on hand have been preserved. If any more comes to light that is great. From getting on most of the projects (after rebolting them), most of which had old rotting tags, there was signs of little activity with small surface areas of rock flaking off here and there, and the odd loose holds too. We are working with what we have, and towards a common goal for all.

Peter just to double check, there wasn't ever details on theCrag which have been lost? We are only talking about stuff potentially documented elsewhere which no-one has transferred over yet?

Brendan Heywood - this is the original guidebook information, which was later copied onto the crag.

http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/30482/20020830-0000/www.sydneyclimbing.com/xgo_elanora_heights.html

Brendan Heywood yeah the link Adrian shared shows the original info on SSS, which would have been included in that XML dump I sent you way back in the day (2003 or so?).

I always thought that it was a major pity that this crag suffered from what one would call 'experimental bolting' back in the day. Martin's accident pretty much signed off the release form so to speak and the crag consequently fell into disrepair, with many of the original equippers losing interest. Jason Rutter Jason would know more (FA of Wake Up, Time to Fly) as he was part of the original scene. I remember walking in there in '96 and '97 thinking the potential was awesome but at the time some of the major lines had tags on them and there were only about three routes worth doing. Left Wing was Jasons project originally. Good work to the boys sorting this place out. It's about time.

Thanks guys for sorting this place out.

I was one of the original developers with Peter Martin and Scott Wilson in addition to Pete James and Steve Kelly. It was as Steve said a time of ' experimental bolting' and whilst some of the routes had extensive jump testing the crag was not advertised or published in part for this reason, that and me moving to QLD.

It was deeply unfortunate to hear of Martin's injuries.

Steve kindly provided info on the routes a while back, and Lucas proactively sought me out to update the Crag.

Osiris is an adaptation of a route originally from Peter Martin. However the start is a totally different line.

Scott Wilson originally did one of the routes 13,14,15 but I not sure which line.

Respect to Lucas, Adrian and peers for having the vision and commitment to rebolt the area. Well done guys, I look forward to getting on some of the routes when it gets cooler and appreciating all your hard work in getting the cliff back in shape.