Grade | Via | Estilo de equipamento | Qualidade | Climber | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Wed 29th May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
8a |
★★★ Super Priapos
![]() | 55m, 25 | |||||
I could not handle the rope drag at the top 😭
|
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Tue 28th May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7c |
★★★ Priapos
![]() | 40m, 23 | ★ Good | ||||
Fell trying to clip the chains 😩 (cries)
|
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Fri 24th May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
8a |
★★★ Fun de Chichunne
![]() | 40m, 28 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Had a play after Raph onsighted this beast, so fun
|
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7a |
★★★ Trela
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Fun
|
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7a+ Easy |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | |||||
Super good, found this more fun than DNA
|
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7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
Jugs and bars
|
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Thu 23rd May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Even more awesome when you use a few kneebars and rest on every second bolt
|
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Wed 22nd May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Amazing, even when you rest on every bolt
|
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Wed 8th May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Cleaning draws
|
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7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Polished but really good!
|
|||||||
Sat 4th May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7c |
★★★ Priapos
![]() | 40m, 23 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Pretty chuffed with a retro flash from 2 years ago but boy was it a fight.
Had the added extra excitement of having dinomite lobed and exploded not too far away for a traditional Greek celebration mid send. Was wild feeling the explosions reverberate in my chest
|
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Fri 3rd May 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | |||||
Should not have tried it when the top was in sun
|
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7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | |||||
first go
|
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Mon 29th Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ |
★★ Taj Mahal
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Super Tour
|
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Mon 22nd Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
Un-punt.
|
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8a ~7c+ |
★★★ Fun de Chichunne
![]() | 40m, 28 | |||||
40m of roofy jugs and kneebars. Two distinct bouldery sections but no moves that are too hard. I wouldn’t give this 8a with how many great rests there are. But the route does suit me well.
Such an amazing climb regardless!! An adventure through tufas and stalactites.
|
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7c |
★★★ Priapos
![]() | 40m, 23 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Epic route! Jugs all the way to the top, they come in so many unique and different sizes. One of the best things I’ve been on.
|
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7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
The most overrated climb there is? Sooo many nicer 7a’s in kalymnos..
|
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Sun 21st Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
Punt.
|
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Sat 20th Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | |||||
retro flash
|
|||||||
7b+ |
★★★ Tufantastic
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
great route. need to work on the upper section a bit more
|
|||||||
Tue 16th Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ Trela
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
so good, one of favourite routes in the island. you go on a journey
|
|||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
still warm up for me
|
|||||||
Tue 9th Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★ KalyPige
![]() | 35m, 17 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Cool tufa climbing up top. Harder th closer you get to the chains
|
|||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
A bit harder than DNA but just as good.
|
|||||||
7c+ |
★★★ Zawinul Syndicate
![]() | 30m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
First 5.13 (7c+) Onsight! Super stoked that I stayed calm and didn't blow it at the top crux! This route has a few big moves in between consistent, hard climbing. Good rests like a lot of these routes makes this one another world class route on this wall.
|
|||||||
7a |
★★ KalyPige
![]() | 35m, 17 | ★ Good | ||||
Good climbing but not easy at the top
|
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7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
Amazing climb with tufa jugs and rests pretty much the whole way - or atleast when you really need them!
|
|||||||
Mon 8th Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
First climb ever in Kalymnos.....thought I'd do the most repeated route on the Island. Didn't disappoint!!! Seems like a kneebar is available at every draw 😂
|
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Sat 6th Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7b+ ~7b |
★★★ Tufantastic
![]() | 40m | |||||
Such a cool climb, juggy tufas everywhere
|
|||||||
Mon 1st Apr 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Some nice moves, some less
|
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6a |
★ Happy Girlfriend
![]() | 15m | ★ Good | ||||
Really polished....
|
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Sat 30th Mar 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
2nd go, I did 6 kneebars and I needed them, pumpy climbing
|
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Sun 28th Jan 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ Hard |
★★ Taj Mahal
![]() | 40m | ★ Good | ||||
挂顶失败 没有看到关键点
|
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Sun 21st Jan 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | Average | ||||
太容易爬错到隔壁7b+了 注意延长快挂
|
|||||||
7b+ |
★★ Ivi Ole
![]() | 20m, 9 | ★ Good | ||||
dyno跳不到 😫
|
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Mon 1st Jan 2024 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7b+ |
★★★ Tufantastic
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Another favourite of this trip. First of the year and last one of my time in Kalymnos 😍
|
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Fri 22nd Dec 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
Fell on the going to the anchor on the flash attempt. Do not underestimate this jiggy climb as it is extremely steep. Cool climbing tho.
|
|||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
My favourite cartoon when I was a kid
|
|||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Shame that I ruined the onsight by trying the direct version which I didn't like much 😕.
This one is way more enjoyable than direct version
|
|||||||
Tue 12th Dec 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
8a Easy |
★★★ Fun de Chichunne
![]() | 40m, 28 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
2nd go?!! I’m in total disbelief of what just happened. Like…how? When I first tried 3 weeks ago I needed 2 days of rest JUST from going bolt to bolt. Maybe the most onsight-able of the grade, anywhere.
Definitely soft, given that I’ve never even done a 7c+ clean. This would MAYBE get 7c/+ in other Balkan countries like Romania or Serbia…but idk where else you can climb a 40m monster roof with 28 QD’s, with moves no harder than V3/4. If you’re fit for this style, it’ll feel like a marathon 7c. Anyhooters, grade is the least important thing about this climb. 1000 stars. |
|||||||
7a ~6c+ |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Holy crap that was one of the best routes I’ve ever done. A jungle gym on tufas. 7a is pretty generous…if you get all the kneebars it’s no harder than 6c+. If you suck at kneebars then this will probably feel 7a+. Extending the last draw is extremely helpful, and damn-near impossible to clip unless you get the kneebar.
|
|||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Lovely! First day we’ve had the cave to ourselves
|
|||||||
Mon 20th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7b+ |
★★★ Tufantastic
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Accidentialy climbed this rout. Wanted to climb trela. Needed one rest after the upper crux,two bolts bevor the Anker😁😁😁😁 (quickdraws were already in)
|
|||||||
7b+ |
★★★ Tufantastic
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Had a good onsight go and came off 2 draws from the top, awesome terrain
|
|||||||
7a |
★★ Elefantenhimmel
![]() | 30m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Fun stalactite wrestling
|
|||||||
7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Fell two draws from top, one to come back for.
|
|||||||
Thu 16th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★ Good | ||||
Desperate! Got spooged off in the sun last week but came back for revenge 😎
|
|||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Super fun at the grade
|
|||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Restful where you need it
|
|||||||
7b+ |
★★★ Tufantastic
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Brilliant climbing and rests, hard finish
|
|||||||
Mon 13th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Hardest move is yeeting thyself to the right for a jug on a grey tufa. The rest is just holding on and getting good kneebars. Top is easy but you’re pumped by then. Multiple double-kneebar upside-down rests. Lol @ everyone giving this 7b on 8a.nu
|
|||||||
Sun 12th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6a Hard |
★ Happy Girlfriend
![]() | 15m | ★ Good | ||||
Tricky little number
|
|||||||
7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Mega mega mega, hopefully I can get on this again. Was quite happy with my attempt
|
|||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Worth the hype
|
|||||||
Fri 10th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Putting the draws on and showing rest beta for Roger Parkyn glorious ascent. He ignored my rest beta, and almost triumphed, grinding to a halt at the high arete. I enjoyed watching him learning on the fly how to clean draws of a steep route. A particular highlight was when he managed to get his shoelace bow caught on a quickdraw and was stuck hanging horizontally. I was impressed with the good condition of the climb given the many thousands of ascents since I climbed it a dozen years ago. Still a banger.
|
|||||||
Thu 9th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ Trela
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Megaaa
|
|||||||
Sun 5th Nov 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
8a ~7c+ |
★★★ Fun de Chichunne
![]() | 40m, 28 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
If you are really steep wall endurance fit & great at kneebarring, it might not feel more than a 13a. But if not, the pump may catch you! Amazing journey through the thick of the Grotta roof. So much fun to be up there. 100% recommend.
|
|||||||
8a Easy |
★★★ Fun de Chichunne
![]() | 40m, 28 | |||||
So happy that Danny convinced me to try this. Linked all the moves with no falls, first or second try. Honestly didn’t feel a move harder than like V3/4? Just one massive endurance fest on a route perfectly suited to my abilities. Can’t wait to see progress on this rig. First time trying an 8a and honestly one of the top 3 climbs I’ve ever been on.
|
|||||||
Sun 22nd Oct 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | |||||
So polished and thanks to the random Brit who was in my way at the crux
|
|||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
supa fun
|
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7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
Slipped off in the sun just before the chain's second shot.
|
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7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | |||||
wilddd
|
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Sat 21st Oct 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★ KalyPige
![]() | 35m, 17 | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Nice one, felt like 7a as a new guidebook propose… at least without knee pad. Super hot today
|
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Sun 15th Oct 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | |||||
Came into the sun as I was halfway up. excellent climbing
|
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7b+ |
★★ Ivi Ole
![]() | 20m, 9 | |||||
feels doable
|
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7a+ |
★★ Aphrodite
![]() | 12m | Average | ||||
waiting for other routes to free up
|
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Wed 20th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
dropped before anchor both attempts
|
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Tue 19th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | |||||
First attempt to set draws
|
|||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Beautiful sustained climbing to a strenuous crux. Then a bad sit-wrap-around rest, followed by a steep kneebar-assisted jug haul to the anchors
|
|||||||
7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
New highpoint, well past half the climb! Linked it in 4 sections, including a super long one to the anchors. So pumped, everywhere, and especially in the calves. Felt like I was gonna puke from the pump!
|
|||||||
Sun 17th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Mega route. Crux is demanding and strong. Lots of good rests after the crux
|
|||||||
Sat 16th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a+ |
★★ Aphrodite
![]() | 12m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
We woke up late and someone was already working on Aegialis, so I decided to get on this instead. Really cool, bouldery sequence on (at this point) slick crimps! I think I've lost some power from all the endurance climbing I've been doing. Enjoyed it a lot!
|
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Wed 13th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7c |
★★★ Aegialis
![]() | 30m, 15 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Got on this the day after the Priapos send. Guess I was wrecked! Headspace and skin didn't help either. Bolts felt far away from each other. Skin hurt. I even somehow ended up with my foot full of bird poop. After I got to the chains after basically bolt-by-bolting this thing, I considered cleaning it, because it didn't feel like it could go this trip with the days I have left. I reasoned that I was just feeling bad, and that I should come try more rested and make up my mind then. This is gonna be a mega pumpfest from |-|311!
|
|||||||
Tue 12th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7c |
★★★ Priapos
![]() | 40m, 23 | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Beautiful climb. Just stunning in every way. The scenery, backdrop, phenomenality of the terran, movement, and more. First started projecting it on my second day in Kalymnos, the 9/9/2023, 2 attempts (onsight attempt almost cleared the hardest section), then 9/10/2023 also saw another attempt. Today, on a windy, perfect weather September day, I focused on breathing above all. After a fine elastic band warrm-up and stretching. Went out of my way to do things properly, as the sheer length of this climb I feel merits any methods that give you the fitness and focus to do all 40 or so meters of overhanging climbing. I made a concentrated effort to keep my breathing under control, and I managed to do it. On the rests, besides continuing my good breathing, I practiced a bit of mindfulness, following the advice from a pretty good article on resting on routes. I allowed myself a lot more easily to be thankful for where I was, and how beautiful and fun it is! I have never done a route quite as beautiful? Maybe only comparable in beauty to Lord of the Thais. Endurance climbing like this is surprisingly (or unsurprisingly hehe) meditative. I timed my rests with Esau. I took sweet and sour gummies to restore my blood sugar. It came down to the wire, too. I tried clipping the chains 3 times before I was actually able to clip the hard-to-move wiregates whilst managing 40m of rope drag meandering through a maze of stalactites. I kept breathing all the way through, climbed a bit higher, and sent. It was amazing.
|
|||||||
Sat 9th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Beautiful, flowy climb to some sculpted tufas.
|
|||||||
Thu 7th Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★ Elefantenhimmel
![]() | 30m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Fell clipping the chains! Felt quite a bit harder than DNA!! Hard to clean, too!
|
|||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Great way to start this trip and also my 40s. Kneebar bonanza. Unbeatable location and views. Felt like I was floating through it. Great stuff. First day driving a scooter too haha.
|
|||||||
Fri 1st Sep 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Once I found the rests it felt a lot easier
|
|||||||
Wed 12th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Aaah, today I found rests! And then realised I don’t actually know how to do the last draw efficiently 😩 This route is so tiring, I only have one go and then a struggle to clean 😅 Now do I come back for it tomorrow before I fly home 🤔🤷♀️
|
|||||||
Sun 9th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Cool route.
|
|||||||
Sat 8th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | |||||
Cool route, had me thinking.
|
|||||||
7a+ |
★★★ Ivi
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Had one fall. Did the rest clean. A full body workout
|
|||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
I spent and waste too much time looking for places to rest and not finding them 🙈 no real crux but route gets harder incrementally the higher you go 🥹
|
|||||||
Fri 7th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Loved in. Had to be creative to rest as much as possible. Lots on knee bars and mushroom seats
|
|||||||
6a |
★ Happy Girlfriend
![]() | 15m | ★ Good | ||||
Had fun on it.
|
|||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Wow! I get why it is raved about. The crux is finding the rests which I haven’t been able to do 🤪
|
|||||||
6a |
★ Happy Girlfriend
![]() | 15m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
The route was more fun than how it looked
|
|||||||
Thu 6th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6b |
★★ Monahiki Elia
![]() | 25m, 9 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Wow, what a cool route! My first route at Grande Grotto and I feel it was a good introduction. Sustained
|
|||||||
Wed 5th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Absolutely unreal route! So much fun. Buckets all day, but the pump clock is ON.
|
|||||||
7a+ |
★★ Aphrodite
![]() | 12m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Nice little problem.
|
|||||||
Tue 4th Jul 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Such cool features, had to work for this one!
|
|||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Such a cool route, disappointed when it ended 🙃
|
|||||||
Mon 29th May 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
What an awesome route! Really endurance-y, should have done some beta runs instead of just throwing myself at it. But by the 3rd go I managed to somehow hold on till the anchors, almost puking in the process.
Gabby's following send was much smoother in comparison |
|||||||
Mon 22nd May 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c Hard |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Polished and sweaty. Did not really enjoy that much as a warmup, too pumpy.
|
|||||||
Tue 16th May 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
Went smoothly, especially with more appropriate shoes
|
|||||||
7a Hard |
★★★ Trela
![]() | 40m | ★★★ Classic | ||||
Fell/slipped at around 2/3 height. Did with a single hang. Top half is demanding and pumpy
|
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Mon 15th May 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★★ DNA
![]() | 20m | ★★★ Mega Classic | ||||
Put the draws on the route
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Fri 12th May 2023 - Kalymnos | |||||||
Armeos Grande Grotta | |||||||
7a |
★★ KalyPige
![]() | 35m, 17 | ★★★ Classic | ||||
A bit weird at the end but really liked.
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6c |
★★ Taz
![]() | 27m | ★★ Very Good | ||||
A little stiff at the top.
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